Engine block aluminum vs compacted graphite iron CGI

[coaster]

Ship motors have a lower, middle and upper block, then the head.
The main bearing bolts and head bolts are a unified peice called a tie bolt, one really long high tensile steel bar.

Not much aluminium to be found in ship motor, maybe the conrod inspection covers, rocker covers.

[saviour stivala]

An engine 'bedplate' is forever associated with marine and stationary engines of considerable size. When a 'bedplate' design is used, the crankshaft is installed into it with removable bearing caps which are bolted onto it and not into the "framebox'/cylinder blog. It, the 'bedplate' with the crankshaft mounted into it supports the 'framebox', the 'framebox' might contain or not the cylinder frame. In formula one where no separate removable bearing caps are used, common terms used are the 'lower sump', and the "upper sump".

I wonder if we are talking about different things. This is what I mean by a bed-plate design:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... A&usqp=CAU

All of the bearing caps and cast into a single piece that forms the bottom half of the cylinder block. Kohler refers to it as a bedplate in their brochure and that is what that design of cylinder block is know as in the off highway industry.

No we are not talking about different things, the problem is the thing called 'BED-PLATE', the one you are showing (KOHLER PHOTO), that yes, it contains the crankshaft lower bearing halves, YES you are right that it is referred to as a 'BED-PLATE', but it is different from the lower part of the formula 1 engine called the 'LOWER SUMP', The difference is the formula 1 lower sump not only also contains the lower half crank main bearing but it also is closed bottom, meaning it catches/contains the oil inside it, that is before the oil is scavenged. The one you show is called a 'BED-PLAT' because the lower half main bearings are cast in, it is not called a lower sump because it has an open bottom which is closed by a normal sump. The other type of 'BED-PLATE' I was originally talking about is also closed bottom and apart from lower main bearing halves being cast or built-in, the crankshaft is held into it by removable main bearing caps bolted down onto it and it completely supports the engine.

[saviour stivala]

Ship motors have a lower, middle and upper block, then the head.
The main bearing bolts and head bolts are a unified peice called a tie bolt, one really long high tensile steel bar.

Not much aluminium to be found in ship motor, maybe the conrod inspection covers, rocker covers.

''Ship motors''. In marine and stationary engine 'prevalence' (biggish size). Starting at the bottom/base and going up. Bedplate is the actual supporting foundation of the engine itself, Crankshaft runs in it, with main bearing caps bolted onto it, upside down to the traditional way of mounting on normal smaller engines. It supports the 'framebox'/cylinder blog. The 'framebox' might contain or not the cylinder frame. Of course the cylinder heads goes on top of cylinder frame.

[coaster]

I could not find a definative reference for naming the lower portion of a ship motor, there might a standards organisation for shipping who might have fact check on this.

[Tommy Cookers]

https://www.pfri.uniri.hr/bopri/documen ... MB_001.pdf

[Martin Keene]

An engine 'bedplate' is forever associated with marine and stationary engines of considerable size. When a 'bedplate' design is used, the crankshaft is installed into it with removable bearing caps which are bolted onto it and not into the "framebox'/cylinder blog. It, the 'bedplate' with the crankshaft mounted into it supports the 'framebox', the 'framebox' might contain or not the cylinder frame. In formula one where no separate removable bearing caps are used, common terms used are the 'lower sump', and the "upper sump".

I wonder if we are talking about different things. This is what I mean by a bed-plate design:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... A&usqp=CAU

All of the bearing caps and cast into a single piece that forms the bottom half of the cylinder block. Kohler refers to it as a bedplate in their brochure and that is what that design of cylinder block is know as in the off highway industry.

No we are not talking about different things, the problem is the thing called 'BED-PLATE', the one you are showing (KOHLER PHOTO), that yes, it contains the crankshaft lower bearing halves, YES you are right that it is referred to as a 'BED-PLATE', but it is different from the lower part of the formula 1 engine called the 'LOWER SUMP', The difference is the formula 1 lower sump not only also contains the lower half crank main bearing but it also is closed bottom, meaning it catches/contains the oil inside it, that is before the oil is scavenged. The one you show is called a 'BED-PLAT' because the lower half main bearings are cast in, it is not called a lower sump because it has an open bottom which is closed by a normal sump. The other type of 'BED-PLATE' I was originally talking about is also closed bottom and apart from lower main bearing halves being cast or built-in, the crankshaft is held into it by removable main bearing caps bolted down onto it and it completely supports the engine.

Ah, I see, I was talking specifically about bedplates, not in relation to F1 engines. I am not sure what I'd call the bottom half of an F1 block, like you say it is not a bedplate because it is open, equally I am not lower sump is right either because that doesn't imply structural support of the crank. Probably crankcase lower half, similar to motorcycle terminology is probably best fit.

[saviour stivala]

I wonder if we are talking about different things. This is what I mean by a bed-plate design:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... A&usqp=CAU

All of the bearing caps and cast into a single piece that forms the bottom half of the cylinder block. Kohler refers to it as a bedplate in their brochure and that is what that design of cylinder block is know as in the off highway industry.

No we are not talking about different things, the problem is the thing called 'BED-PLATE', the one you are showing (KOHLER PHOTO), that yes, it contains the crankshaft lower bearing halves, YES you are right that it is referred to as a 'BED-PLATE', but it is different from the lower part of the formula 1 engine called the 'LOWER SUMP', The difference is the formula 1 lower sump not only also contains the lower half crank main bearing but it also is closed bottom, meaning it catches/contains the oil inside it, that is before the oil is scavenged. The one you show is called a 'BED-PLAT' because the lower half main bearings are cast in, it is not called a lower sump because it has an open bottom which is closed by a normal sump. The other type of 'BED-PLATE' I was originally talking about is also closed bottom and apart from lower main bearing halves being cast or built-in, the crankshaft is held into it by removable main bearing caps bolted down onto it and it completely supports the engine.

Ah, I see, I was talking specifically about bedplates, not in relation to F1 engines. I am not sure what I'd call the bottom half of an F1 block, like you say it is not a bedplate because it is open, equally I am not lower sump is right either because that doesn't imply structural support of the crank. Probably crankcase lower half, similar to motorcycle terminology is probably best fit.

Yes. agree and thank you. Best fit terminology crankcase lower half/lower crankcase similar to motorcycle terminology. Because after all it is all down to prevalence/terminology of the subject/make at hand being talked about. The poster kicking off all this was originally talking matters belonging to the (TJ 3.0 LITRE V10) by using terminology/prevalence of some other make/different type of engine. One can say that there is not much wrong in it at all, but in a technical discussion attributing the wrong/non normal name to a part can lead others on the wrong understanding of the function of part in question.

[coaster]

Note has been taken Saviour, the TJ lower sump made of brass, not a "brass bedplate" as i originally posted.

[saviour stivala]

Note has been taken Saviour, the TJ lower sump made of brass, not a "brass bedplate" as i originally posted.

What ever metal that TJ lower sump had been made off it's still called a lower sump in formula one circles. Re the use of heavier metal on lower-down engine parts of formula one engines, That practice was reverted too in the NA 3.0-LITRE V-10 ERA when incredibly low engine weights were being reached, the propose was to add ballast at the lowest possible place of the car and not for any other advantage.

[Tommy Cookers]

Note has been taken Saviour, the TJ lower sump made of brass, not a "brass bedplate" as i originally posted.

... Re the use of heavier metal on lower-down engine parts of formula one engines, That practice was reverted too in the NA 3.0-LITRE V-10 ERA when incredibly low engine weights were being reached, the propose was to add ballast at the lowest possible place of the car and not for any other advantage.

doesn't "reverted to" mean this heavier metal (in effect ballast exempt from ballast rules) was used before this V10 ?
was it ?
when ?
by whom ?

yes of heavier metals brass is the best match with al. alloy in (high) thermal expansion (and low elastic modulus)
but in engineering terms it's a joke metal

[saviour stivala]

''Reverted to" apologies. Should have been ''Resorted to''. Perior to 2014 F1 cars often weighed-in under the limit, so teams added ballast in order to add weight to the car, and there was an advantage in being able to add ballast.

[saviour stivala]

When an F1 team was able to produce a car that weight less than the stipulated minimum said team was able to add ballast at strategic locations which was advantageous, In 2003 BMW produced their P83 3-0 LITRE V10 with a reduced weight of 2kg from that of their previous year P82 which weighted in at 86kg. To achieve the desired weight distribution in the car, a 'bronze' crankcase floor and 'bronze' main bearing caps were introduced in the season as ballast. A note. By this time BMW was not using a 'lower sump' with lower half main bearing caps incorporated into it because by using main bearing caps bolted to the cylinder block (upper crankcase) they said that they were able to achieve the required engine stiffness to be used as a load bearing part of the car.

[coaster]

Back to topic, the whole crux of the threads heading should really be about hot stiffness of aluminium alloys verses cast iron because this is the only way that cast iron could be an improved material over cast aluminium would be subject to higher temperatures.

[saviour stivala]

The original post that started this topic - "Engine block material, Aluminum vs compacted graphite iron for formula 1?". Striaght-2-d-point. As long as formula 1 engine designers can achieve their projected aims/targets with the lighter in weight of two metals they will certainly specify the lighter of the two. The formula 1 90 degree vee all aluminum engines have extreme structural stiffness.

[Tommy Cookers]

...As long as formula 1 engine designers can achieve their projected aims/targets with the lighter in weight of two metals they will certainly specify the lighter of the two. The formula 1 90 degree vee all aluminum engines have extreme structural stiffness.

F1 fixes engine dimensions that help in the use of aluminium alloys (many previous F1 turbos eg Honda were iron-block)
F1 has lower peak cylinder pressures ? (than previous turbo F1)
F1 has (iirc) quite low coolant temperatures