Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
stonehenge
stonehenge
2
Joined: 22 Apr 2022, 15:56
Location: Washington, DC

Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

Post

Stu wrote:
10 Feb 2024, 18:20
Blackout wrote:
10 Feb 2024, 16:45
K1Plus wrote:
26 Dec 2023, 23:20
The zeropod needs a specific chassis and layout due to it being such a tight packaging. It also requires that bulky big gearbox.
Bulky big gearbox?
I keep reading that, but have no idea where that particular ‘fact’ originates. I’d love to know who has seen it close up with a tape measure next to every other gearbox.
There’s no logical reason that the zero-pod chassis required a large gearbox. If anything, a smaller gearbox probably would’ve helped because the zero-pod chassis required everything to be packaged extremely tight. The main reason not to do a small gearbox is that it risks reliability issues (as Red Bull had in early 2022). So it’s all about cost-benefit. Red Bull clearly thought it was worth the risk because of the room it creates for the diffuser. Mercedes did not. It’s linked to the zero-pod insofar as it indicates that Mercedes prioritized the wrong aspects of the car. So it’s emblematic of a larger issue. Mercedes won’t simply go quicker by making the gearbox smaller, but only if they can show they correctly understand what is needed to optimize the airflow in this ground effect era.

It’s the same story for the suspension. Anti-dive anti-squat isn’t a silver bullet—it comes with tradeoffs. It’s all about whether you correctly understand how to make all areas of the car work well together. That’s something Mercedes has yet to show in the past two years. They need to make a big step this year and prove they understand the direction they need to take, even if they ultimately aren’t as quick as Red Bull because the regulations won’t change that much in 2026 and they need to get the hang of this before 2025.

User avatar
F1Krof
94
Joined: 22 Feb 2016, 21:17

Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

Post

What are the chances of seeing W15 as another zero-pod version altogether?
Wroom wroom

morefirejules08
morefirejules08
4
Joined: 11 Feb 2012, 14:21

Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

Post

F1Krof wrote:
11 Feb 2024, 00:13
What are the chances of seeing W15 as another zero-pod version altogether?
Zero

Gabriox
Gabriox
0
Joined: 31 Aug 2023, 21:42

Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

Post

F1Krof wrote:
11 Feb 2024, 00:13
What are the chances of seeing W15 as another zero-pod version altogether?
The chances are zero! The new sidepods that they brought to monaco actually took some tenths out of the car because it follows a different aero concept to the zero pods. Mercedes was good at the fast speed tracks like Barcelona. Which earned them second and third place. After introducing the sidepods, suspension and new front wing they suddenly became good at slow speed corners and lost grip at the high speed tracks. Silverstone was supposed to be a good track for them but that wasn't the case, as they were lacking space on the high speed section of the track. It was evident that aero philosophy had changed. I think we will see a side pod similar to the w14 but more organic looking with curves. Rumors are implying that they are sticking with the push rod at the front which worries me.

f1jcw
f1jcw
17
Joined: 21 Feb 2019, 21:15

Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

Post

Gabriox wrote:
11 Feb 2024, 01:27
F1Krof wrote:
11 Feb 2024, 00:13
What are the chances of seeing W15 as another zero-pod version altogether?
The chances are zero! The new sidepods that they brought to monaco actually took some tenths out of the car because it follows a different aero concept to the zero pods. Mercedes was good at the fast speed tracks like Barcelona. Which earned them second and third place. After introducing the sidepods, suspension and new front wing they suddenly became good at slow speed corners and lost grip at the high speed tracks. Silverstone was supposed to be a good track for them but that wasn't the case, as they were lacking space on the high speed section of the track. It was evident that aero philosophy had changed. I think we will see a side pod similar to the w14 but more organic looking with curves. Rumors are implying that they are sticking with the push rod at the front which worries me.
Wonder why they didn’t switch back to the old spec for races like silverstone

PhF1x
PhF1x
1
Joined: 09 Dec 2023, 15:31

Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

Post

stonehenge wrote:
10 Feb 2024, 23:35
It’s the same story for the suspension. Anti-dive anti-squat isn’t a silver bullet—it comes with tradeoffs. It’s all about whether you correctly understand how to make all areas of the car work well together. That’s something Mercedes has yet to show in the past two years. They need to make a big step this year and prove they understand the direction they need to take, even if they ultimately aren’t as quick as Red Bull because the regulations won’t change that much in 2026 and they need to get the hang of this before 2025.
Mercedes simply followed their previous design philosophy of a long and slim car that produces maximum downforce with tools that keep it in that window. If anything the w13 is just the w12 for these current rules. I'm betting if the suspension regulations were not simplified or if bargeboards were removed, Mercedes wouldve been far more competitive.

As for my speculations, if they continue their old philosophy they probably will try to max out the length of the car while adding conventional sidepods. They probably will find a way to keep the winglets they have under their sis bar on the w13 and find another loophole in the rules to try and add performance but their floor may still be conservatively shaped. Whether they change suspension would be a flip of a coin. On one hand it reduces the number of excuses but on the other hand if they change too much at once they will have issues troubleshooting potential issues. So as them I would change the floor and body while keeping the suspension as the same and when I'm confident with the changes then I'll change the suspension.

User avatar
organic
1056
Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

Post

Formu1a Uno stating that Ferrari (and thereby Haas) will be the only team using pullrod rear. So mercedes likely switching to a pushrod rear suspension

We'll see the AMR24 tomorrow morning which should confirm whether this has happened

Farnborough
Farnborough
103
Joined: 18 Mar 2023, 14:15

Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

Post

I feel Mercedes learnt a lot post Monaco update, paying more attention to open thinking in many aspect rather than just continuing along the same lines leading up to this period.

Also feel it's potentially valuable in giving them a "clean sheet" look at how they approach this W15. Tbats not a clean sheet design necessarily, but a more lucid view and raw evaluation of anything brought to the fore in development consideration.

Seems likely that this gearbox iteration will go into 2026 era too, making it vital to build and develop that layout for them in medium to longer term concept.

trinidefender
trinidefender
317
Joined: 19 Apr 2013, 20:37

Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

Post

f1jcw wrote:
11 Feb 2024, 01:29
Gabriox wrote:
11 Feb 2024, 01:27
F1Krof wrote:
11 Feb 2024, 00:13
What are the chances of seeing W15 as another zero-pod version altogether?
The chances are zero! The new sidepods that they brought to monaco actually took some tenths out of the car because it follows a different aero concept to the zero pods. Mercedes was good at the fast speed tracks like Barcelona. Which earned them second and third place. After introducing the sidepods, suspension and new front wing they suddenly became good at slow speed corners and lost grip at the high speed tracks. Silverstone was supposed to be a good track for them but that wasn't the case, as they were lacking space on the high speed section of the track. It was evident that aero philosophy had changed. I think we will see a side pod similar to the w14 but more organic looking with curves. Rumors are implying that they are sticking with the push rod at the front which worries me.
Wonder why they didn’t switch back to the old spec for races like silverstone
The chassis probably had to be modified when the new sidepods were put on. Wouldn't be feasible to change them back for those races. Also means that they learn less of the new concept reducing potential performance that they will be able to extract from the new package

Vaexa
Vaexa
6
Joined: 24 Jun 2021, 18:58

Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

Post

trinidefender wrote:
11 Feb 2024, 23:34
f1jcw wrote:
11 Feb 2024, 01:29
Gabriox wrote:
11 Feb 2024, 01:27


The chances are zero! The new sidepods that they brought to monaco actually took some tenths out of the car because it follows a different aero concept to the zero pods. Mercedes was good at the fast speed tracks like Barcelona. Which earned them second and third place. After introducing the sidepods, suspension and new front wing they suddenly became good at slow speed corners and lost grip at the high speed tracks. Silverstone was supposed to be a good track for them but that wasn't the case, as they were lacking space on the high speed section of the track. It was evident that aero philosophy had changed. I think we will see a side pod similar to the w14 but more organic looking with curves. Rumors are implying that they are sticking with the push rod at the front which worries me.
Wonder why they didn’t switch back to the old spec for races like silverstone
The chassis probably had to be modified when the new sidepods were put on. Wouldn't be feasible to change them back for those races. Also means that they learn less of the new concept reducing potential performance that they will be able to extract from the new package
Mercedes did not change any structural components for their Monaco update other than front suspension geometry (and even then, I believe they still reused the same pickup points). Certainly not the tub.

trinidefender
trinidefender
317
Joined: 19 Apr 2013, 20:37

Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

Post

Vaexa wrote:
12 Feb 2024, 00:42
trinidefender wrote:
11 Feb 2024, 23:34
f1jcw wrote:
11 Feb 2024, 01:29

Wonder why they didn’t switch back to the old spec for races like silverstone
The chassis probably had to be modified when the new sidepods were put on. Wouldn't be feasible to change them back for those races. Also means that they learn less of the new concept reducing potential performance that they will be able to extract from the new package
Mercedes did not change any structural components for their Monaco update other than front suspension geometry (and even then, I believe they still reused the same pickup points). Certainly not the tub.
Structurally they probably wouldn’t have modified the tub but that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have had to add or change mounting points for things like the cooling system and various other systems which did all change location.

Changing brackets like that in carbon fibre isn’t a nontrivial task.

I honestly thought they did change the pickup points for the front suspension, unless the geometry change was done through the upright mounting points. Or am I missing something?

User avatar
organic
1056
Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

Post

https://formu1a.uno/aston-martin-amr24- ... osteriore/

AMR have confirmed the rear suspension of Merc is pushrod for 2024
The Silverstone team confirms - without too many secrets as Williams did - the change to the push rod solution at the rear
Fallows:
We inherited the new Mercedes push-rod suspension . We purchase the transmission from them and consequently also the rear suspension

User avatar
F1NAC
170
Joined: 31 Mar 2013, 22:35

Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

Post

organic wrote:
12 Feb 2024, 10:13
https://formu1a.uno/aston-martin-amr24- ... osteriore/

AMR have confirmed the rear suspension of Merc is pushrod for 2024
The Silverstone team confirms - without too many secrets as Williams did - the change to the push rod solution at the rear
Fallows:
We inherited the new Mercedes push-rod suspension . We purchase the transmission from them and consequently also the rear suspension
So merc and their customers are the only one on grid with push-push? AT was the last team before switching to pull-push. Stake also switched from push push to pull push.

Martin Keene
Martin Keene
8
Joined: 11 May 2010, 09:02

Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

Post

KimiRai wrote:
06 Feb 2024, 23:54
Franco Nugnes said Mercedes would maintain pullrod at the rear, but he could be wrong I guess
(5th january)
The new Mercedes, therefore, will have the advantage of redistributing the masses and will offer a more compact rear end, without revolutions, because the suspension will maintain the pull rod scheme without copying the push rod concepts of Red Bull: the shorter gearbox will move further back the engine and, therefore, the passenger compartment, by moving the radiator outlets away from the front wheel.
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-me ... /10562819/
That statement from Franco Nugnes has aged badly!

Martin Keene
Martin Keene
8
Joined: 11 May 2010, 09:02

Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

Post

F1NAC wrote:
12 Feb 2024, 11:02
organic wrote:
12 Feb 2024, 10:13
https://formu1a.uno/aston-martin-amr24- ... osteriore/

AMR have confirmed the rear suspension of Merc is pushrod for 2024
The Silverstone team confirms - without too many secrets as Williams did - the change to the push rod solution at the rear
Fallows:
We inherited the new Mercedes push-rod suspension . We purchase the transmission from them and consequently also the rear suspension
So merc and their customers are the only one on grid with push-push? AT was the last team before switching to pull-push. Stake also switched from push push to pull push.
Aston Martin is push-push, we don't know about Mercedes yet.