Christian Horner under Investigation

[Hammerfist]

Is it really that hard to imagine what may have happened?

An ex had a similar “colleagues”… she received mail/texts/messenger/whatsapp/linkedin/… related to work which she responded, then switched to casual conversation over time…and sometimes he slowly drifted to “btw your skirt *chef kiss*… wonder what I could find underneath”.. leave it on read… that would drive him nuts so he insisted more and more…
Then few days later after silence, work related texts with urgency to which she felt obliged to respond… sometimes nothing going further but occasionally, it drifted again. It took her few iterations over several months to have the courage to go to hr…
It’s not that hard to imagine such a dynamic and for the one who receives it, it’s more complicated in the beginning to assess “is it innuendo?”… until it’s too late and it’s not hidden anymore…

Sorry to state the obvious, but it unfortunately happens quite a lot in the workplace…
Not saying that’s what happened here, but for the cases I directly witnessed, it’s always the same scheme:
There’s always 2-3 guys in a big company who you always see having lun ch with the new joiner “pretty girl”. Even though they have no project in common and never worked together (and probably never will).
But funny enough, when it’s a boy their “mentor” personality is not that applicable…. Those ones are easy to identify, ignore and raise concerns…

But when it’s your boss, it’s hard to put a hard stop when you notice it switching from “nice guy” to “a bit creepy”.

So yeah there can be months of exchange between two persons, you can feel obligated to respond *some* texts even after you knew it was going sidetrack… doesn’t mean you were a willing participant in all this…

This is a nice story and could be spot on. But also could be very far away from the truth. I really don't get what's the point of speculating and imagining scenarios without knowing the facts?

I also have workplace experiences with girls who are kind of flirty and initiating cheeky interactions, then shutting down and backing off before things would go serious. It happens all the time.

Also I have 2 female colleagues with whom I switch lot of flirty messages. We all know this is just for fun, and nothing serious. It has been going on for years and for us it is clear that we mean no business. But it would look really bad if an outsider saw those messages as they are juicy and it would be impossible to explain that these were just for game and fun.

My point is that these issues can be really delicate with thin margins and many sides, it really doesn't make sense to draw a picture without knowing all the details, which we most probably never will.
The best is to wait for the official communication and accept the closure whatever that will be.

But imagine if those females you flirted with were your subordinates. It doesn’t matter if you were joking. It was still stupid to flirt with them and you would be just begging them to report you. There is nothing right about sexual texts between a superior and his colleagues. Horner is toast.

[organic]

Hopefully we will have a resolution today or tomorrow. Seems to be mounting pressure to have the investigation concluded before testing

[Watto]

Ultimately if the recent rumours are true I don’t really see how he survives I’m skeptical though there is something more at play but who knows

[Itsashambles]

Is it really that hard to imagine what may have happened?

An ex had a similar “colleagues”… she received mail/texts/messenger/whatsapp/linkedin/… related to work which she responded, then switched to casual conversation over time…and sometimes he slowly drifted to “btw your skirt *chef kiss*… wonder what I could find underneath”.. leave it on read… that would drive him nuts so he insisted more and more…
Then few days later after silence, work related texts with urgency to which she felt obliged to respond… sometimes nothing going further but occasionally, it drifted again. It took her few iterations over several months to have the courage to go to hr…
It’s not that hard to imagine such a dynamic and for the one who receives it, it’s more complicated in the beginning to assess “is it innuendo?”… until it’s too late and it’s not hidden anymore…

Sorry to state the obvious, but it unfortunately happens quite a lot in the workplace…
Not saying that’s what happened here, but for the cases I directly witnessed, it’s always the same scheme:
There’s always 2-3 guys in a big company who you always see having lun ch with the new joiner “pretty girl”. Even though they have no project in common and never worked together (and probably never will).
But funny enough, when it’s a boy their “mentor” personality is not that applicable…. Those ones are easy to identify, ignore and raise concerns…

But when it’s your boss, it’s hard to put a hard stop when you notice it switching from “nice guy” to “a bit creepy”.

So yeah there can be months of exchange between two persons, you can feel obligated to respond *some* texts even after you knew it was going sidetrack… doesn’t mean you were a willing participant in all this…

This is a nice story and could be spot on. But also could be very far away from the truth. I really don't get what's the point of speculating and imagining scenarios without knowing the facts?

I also have workplace experiences with girls who are kind of flirty and initiating cheeky interactions, then shutting down and backing off before things would go serious. It happens all the time.

Also I have 2 female colleagues with whom I switch lot of flirty messages. We all know this is just for fun, and nothing serious. It has been going on for years and for us it is clear that we mean no business. But it would look really bad if an outsider saw those messages as they are juicy and it would be impossible to explain that these were just for game and fun.

My point is that these issues can be really delicate with thin margins and many sides, it really doesn't make sense to draw a picture without knowing all the details, which we most probably never will.
The best is to wait for the official communication and accept the closure whatever that will be.

I really think you should stop sending flirty messages and joking around. You need clear boundaries, and the gray areas are not in anyones favor.

[bagajohny]

Ultimately if the recent rumours are true I don’t really see how he survives I’m skeptical though there is something more at play but who knows

Why do you suspect there is something more at play?

[Watto]

Ultimately if the recent rumours are true I don’t really see how he survives I’m skeptical though there is something more at play but who knows

Why do you suspect there is something more at play?

I guess that when it first broke it was all about a controlling management with the rumours saying it was no in a sexual context. That changed in recent days, add all the nixed Porsche deal and things like the Horner/Marko control of team since DMs passing I’m just curious- I absolutely think there is something that Christian has done to cause all this, just who knows what

[koolway]

This is a nice story and could be spot on. But also could be very far away from the truth. I really don't get what's the point of speculating and imagining scenarios without knowing the facts?

I'm not speculating on THAT specific matter, I'm just giving an explanation for the people arguing it's impossible to exchange messages *between* 2 people, without taking part, or not wiling to take part in the "romance" part of it.

eg : If she ever texted back to him, it means she was willing to participate

Out of several factors, there's blurred lines and job commitment aspects that are non-negligible.
Where does kindness, flattering, flirting or harassment end exactly ? It's a tough call, especially when you cannot say a straight "f**** off" and block that contact.

[Paa]

But imagine if those females you flirted with were your subordinates. It doesn’t matter if you were joking. It was still stupid to flirt with them and you would be just begging them to report you. There is nothing right about sexual texts between a superior and his colleagues. Horner is toast.

Probably I see the moral side a bit differently, but either way I agree that this was incredibly stupid by Horner if it happened as reported. Especially the texting part.

[Mogster]

Is it really that hard to imagine what may have happened?

An ex had a similar “colleagues”… she received mail/texts/messenger/whatsapp/linkedin/… related to work which she responded, then switched to casual conversation over time…and sometimes he slowly drifted to “btw your skirt *chef kiss*… wonder what I could find underneath”.. leave it on read… that would drive him nuts so he insisted more and more…
Then few days later after silence, work related texts with urgency to which she felt obliged to respond… sometimes nothing going further but occasionally, it drifted again. It took her few iterations over several months to have the courage to go to hr…
It’s not that hard to imagine such a dynamic and for the one who receives it, it’s more complicated in the beginning to assess “is it innuendo?”… until it’s too late and it’s not hidden anymore…

Sorry to state the obvious, but it unfortunately happens quite a lot in the workplace…
Not saying that’s what happened here, but for the cases I directly witnessed, it’s always the same scheme:
There’s always 2-3 guys in a big company who you always see having lun ch with the new joiner “pretty girl”. Even though they have no project in common and never worked together (and probably never will).
But funny enough, when it’s a boy their “mentor” personality is not that applicable…. Those ones are easy to identify, ignore and raise concerns…

But when it’s your boss, it’s hard to put a hard stop when you notice it switching from “nice guy” to “a bit creepy”.

So yeah there can be months of exchange between two persons, you can feel obligated to respond *some* texts even after you knew it was going sidetrack… doesn’t mean you were a willing participant in all this…

This is a nice story and could be spot on. But also could be very far away from the truth. I really don't get what's the point of speculating and imagining scenarios without knowing the facts?

I also have workplace experiences with girls who are kind of flirty and initiating cheeky interactions, then shutting down and backing off before things would go serious. It happens all the time.

Also I have 2 female colleagues with whom I switch lot of flirty messages. We all know this is just for fun, and nothing serious. It has been going on for years and for us it is clear that we mean no business. But it would look really bad if an outsider saw those messages as they are juicy and it would be impossible to explain that these were just for game and fun.

My point is that these issues can be really delicate with thin margins and many sides, it really doesn't make sense to draw a picture without knowing all the details, which we most probably never will.
The best is to wait for the official communication and accept the closure whatever that will be.

But imagine if those females you flirted with were your subordinates. It doesn’t matter if you were joking. It was still stupid to flirt with them and you would be just begging them to report you. There is nothing right about sexual texts between a superior and his colleagues. Horner is toast.

Yes exactly. Also what was acceptable when he was 30 may be very different to what’s acceptable now as a 50 year old. Especially when interacting with younger subordinates. Whatever, and we aren’t aware of all the evidence, it seems he’s been at least very stupid.

I do wonder if Red Bull and their legal team are letting this ride for a few weeks to see if any further evidence comes to light. That seems to frequently be the way these things are progressed.

[Wouter]

I haven't read anywhere what you are saying. Receiving a message is not "participating" ...

.
This is what The Telegraaf stated:
.

From the app traffic between the female employee of Red Bull and Horner, viewed by The Telegraph,
the picture emerges that Horner (50) sent sexually oriented messages to the employee regularly
and over a considerable period of time.

.
So she participated and not only receiving messages. And as I said before: initially [in the beginning].

.
She is Horner's assistant , so there is always very busy traffic, and f.e. one's in a time( f.e. month) , in between lines , he could have texted something not related to work....and she only sending messages regarding work , without reacting on Horner's You are so beautiful ........ sorry for my bad English

.
That would be very possible.

[PapayaFan481]

Just to add to those saying that if she engaged in the conversation then she is also to blame, in UK employment law that wouldn't matter.

Horner is in a position of power and thus could still be guilty of sexual harassment in the work place, perhaps through coercive or controlling behaviour.

Hell there's a similar, though granted different dynamic between mentors and mentees in my profession. Both are adults, both can be consenting, but if something develops of a sexual nature, the mentor can lose their job.

So even if the woman replied and engaged in flirting etc, Horner could still be in hot water here.

I also disagree that this will be swept under the rug. Not in the era of "Me Too" after Harvey Wienstein et al. Either Horner is proven innocent or I'm afraid he'll be forced to step down.

[Ground Effect]

The head scratching part for me is Horner flatly denying it. Why would he if there's such overwhelming proof as the media are stating? This is what casts doubt in my mind, there's a real possibility that what's being told by the media are grossly misrepresented or flat out false and even made up. Horner described the allegations as "nuts" when they first came out, if I'm remembering correctly. On the under hand, if the allegations of the sexting are correct, then maybe Horner is of the impression that whatever transpired was consensual between two adults? But the lady being a subordinate still paints a scenario of it being inappropriate, which he'll largely carry the blame for.

[PapayaFan481]

The head scratching part for me is Horner flatly denying it. Why would he if there's such overwhelming proof as the media are stating? This is what casts doubt in my mind, there's a real possibility that what's being told by the media are grossly misrepresented or flat out false and even made up. Horner described the allegations as "nuts" when they first came out, if I'm remembering correctly. On the under hand, if the allegations of the sexting are correct, then maybe Horner is of the impression that whatever transpired was consensual between two adults? But the lady being a subordinate still paints a scenario of it an inappropriate situation, which he'll largely carry the blame for.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he also denied that Red Bull broke the budget cap in 2021 until it was shown that they didn't, didn't he?

[Watto]

The head scratching part for me is Horner flatly denying it. Why would he if there's such overwhelming proof as the media are stating? This is what casts doubt in my mind, there's a real possibility that what's being told by the media are grossly misrepresented or flat out false and even made up. Horner described the allegations as "nuts" when they first came out, if I'm remembering correctly. On the under hand, if the allegations of the sexting are correct, then maybe Horner is of the impression that whatever transpired was consensual between two adults? But the lady being a subordinate still paints a scenario of it an inappropriate situation, which he'll largely carry the blame for.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he also denied that Red Bull broke the budget cap in 2021 until it was shown that they didn't, didn't he?

Think that’s true but from what I have read too the cap rules are very complex with a lot of grey areas - he may well have though they were clear but the fia disagreed - then again I guess the same could be at play here in some form

[bonjon1979]

This is a nice story and could be spot on. But also could be very far away from the truth. I really don't get what's the point of speculating and imagining scenarios without knowing the facts?

I'm not speculating on THAT specific matter, I'm just giving an explanation for the people arguing it's impossible to exchange messages *between* 2 people, without taking part, or not wiling to take part in the "romance" part of it.

eg : If she ever texted back to him, it means she was willing to participate

Out of several factors, there's blurred lines and job commitment aspects that are non-negligible.
Where does kindness, flattering, flirting or harassment end exactly ? It's a tough call, especially when you cannot say a straight "f**** off" and block that contact.

She may well have texted him back, not because she was willing to but because of the power dynamics of a boss/employee relationship. That’s why you can’t behave in anything like the manner that’s been suggested with a subordinate, via company communication devices, or in company time. Even if it’s all kept out of the work place then it is a morally grey area because an employee more often than not feels compelled to keep the boss happy…