Christian Horner under Investigation

[bonjon1979]

She may well have texted him back, not because she was willing to but because of the power dynamics of a boss/employee relationship. That’s why you can’t behave in anything like the manner that’s been suggested with a subordinate, via company communication devices, or in company time. Even if it’s all kept out of the work place then it is a morally grey area because an employee more often than not feels compelled to keep the boss happy…

Sorry if it was not clear enough, but that’s my point too.
I was trying to explain how the boundaries can be pushed little by little, and how it’s not as easy for a victim to say stop and raise concerns immediately depending on multiple factors

Yeh, I was agreeing with your response to the embedded quote. Not so good with the button pressing

[Ground Effect]

Cant help but feel that without Horner it is down hill for Red Bull racing. Could take them a decade to recover with the new regs involved.
I know he does not personally roll up his sleeves, but he makes sure someone does

Horner is the least influential TP in F1. He doesn't make big calls for the team, doesn't decide who drives, which engine they use, doesn't have a solid background in engineering. He's just a very articulate and effective PR man, with an expertise in mind games. He's also good mates with Newey, at least we think he is. I don't want him gone this way at all, but Red Bull will be fine without him. He's quite a character and the sport needs different characters.

[PapayaFan481]

So you let your boss to harass you for months?!

What I would do is irrelevant. Your exposition ignores well understood issues that arise through power and gender imbalances in workplaces.

No it doesn’t. My boss send me a relationship intention, sexual or nude or other message that i am not ok with. I let him/her know once as every other person, Politely, that that’s a boundary not to cross. He/she does again sorry but it is blocked and reported to HR. At least in my case. If you let him/her doing for months means the boundaries lines were not clear from the beginning.

If it was 30 years ago would understand gender and power Dynamics. But these days with new laws i don’t know why you will allowed for moths.

Perhaps she asked for it to be ended and he then used his position to try and coerce her into continuing?

Fact is that we simply don't know and, unless it goes to court or someone sells the story, we will probably never know all the facts.

I agree with others though that say they feel Horner is on his way out.

On the other hand, I disagree with those saying the team cannot survive it. I feel like Horner is a polarising figure within the team (as Dennis was at McLaren) and perhaps, someone else could take over and be every bit as good, even better and not be as polarising a character.

Who knows. I think the key question, IF Horner goes, is what do Newey and other key figures in the team do?

[bonjon1979]

So you let your boss to harass you for months?!

What I would do is irrelevant. Your exposition ignores well understood issues that arise through power and gender imbalances in workplaces.

No it doesn’t. My boss send me a relationship intention, sexual or nude or other message that i am not ok with. I let him/her know once as every other person, Politely, that that’s a boundary not to cross. He/she does again sorry but it is blocked and reported to HR. At least in my case. If you let him/her doing for months means the boundaries lines were not clear from the beginning.

If it was 30 years ago would understand gender and power Dynamics. But these days with new laws i don’t know why you will allowed for moths.

Gender power dynamics in the workplace haven’t shifted as much as you imagine. Women in the work place are still often made to feel like they are a ‘problem’ if they raise issues with their male bosses behaviour and often feel terrified of losing much cherished jobs if they ‘rock the boat’. We’ll never find out anyway, as the individual will be paid off, they’ll withdraw their allegation and Christian will be exonerated. I wonder if it’ll be included in the financial statements submitted for budget cap compliance!

[Quantum]

No it doesn’t. My boss send me a relationship intention, sexual or nude or other message that i am not ok with. I let him/her know once as every other person, Politely, that that’s a boundary not to cross. He/she does again sorry but it is blocked and reported to HR. At least in my case. If you let him/her doing for months means the boundaries lines were not clear from the beginning.

If it was 30 years ago would understand gender and power Dynamics. But these days with new laws i don’t know why you will allowed for moths.

This supposition works only if there was no duress, and HR did their jobs properly.
Theoretical case :You have a person who might have been threatened with their job if it was reported.
In the latter you have an HR department who could've been pressured by the boss to do nothing and sweep it under the carpet. Even after "politely" blocking your boss who just sent a relationship intention/nude/sexual message the egg has been scrambled for future prospects and near term employment.
Very possible a person might not want to report and just get on with things as they were. But a spurned boss might want some form of retribution. Turn up 1 min late, warning. That person is made clearly aware they are no longer welcome by the boss. This is where that kind of behaviour can lead on for months.
I don't know if that's what happened here, just saying it's entirely within the realms of possibility.

[franbatista123]

Cant help but feel that without Horner it is down hill for Red Bull racing. Could take them a decade to recover with the new regs involved.
I know he does not personally roll up his sleeves, but he makes sure someone does

Horner is the least influential TP in F1. He doesn't make big calls for the team, doesn't decide who drives, which engine they use, doesn't have a solid background in engineering. He's just a very articulate and effective PR man, with an expertise in mind games. He's also good mates with Newey, at least we think he is. I don't want him gone this way at all, but Red Bull will be fine without him. He's quite a character and the sport needs different characters.

He's also the CEO of Red Bull Racing and has been since 2005. If anything, his loss will be massive. However, him leaving would not be felt instantly, it would take a while to be felt, as a consequence of his good work.

[koolway]

Unless he’s Harvey Weinstein he probably didn’t not send on a Thursday night : “room 1763 @10pm, I will rock your world… think about your next paycheck”
There’s 1.000.000 nuances between that and a simple “how are you sweetheart?”…

[Sieper]

But even just that, not OK. I am not speculating on what happened here but just replying. It’s condescending, even if you mean it well. You can say things like that to your relation, children, but not a colleague who is also trying to do a good job. They are not your sweetheart. I think the Dutch equivalent is “schatje”, I would never say that to a colleague. It wouldn’t even cross my mind.

[Paa]

In real life, it’s a bit more complicated.
Your assumption is that such messages burst out of the gate.
Situation is evolving, message contents are evolving… you feel obligated to be polite because at first you’re not even sure of the true nature of it.
Even if you, as a victim, may think it’s funny and charming at first, and no harm is done… it doesn’t mean that anything done after that will be categorized as such.

You can find it creepy from the 1st occurrence. There’s no formula or roadbook to state if something is within the acceptable lines or not.

Let’s consider the “worst” scenario :
- they started flirting, she was ok with it…
- they even hooked up, she was still ok with it…
- she decides to stop, and he keeps on insisting for weeks or months…
that is still f…. up and problematic, no matter what you may think…

Now let’s consider a middle of the road scenario:
- he starts sending work related messages through a “private” channel
- she obliged and reply as a good employee would, using company phone….
- sometimes he drift to personal discussion “weather looks lovely in the coming days, any plans for the weekend?” (-> do you call hr from that point?)
- alternate work & personal, and push the boundary a bit more every time…
Add a little bit of particular context to it : one every other weekend, you’re both staying at a hotel abroad…
- be more and more personal…
- tell him to stop because it makes you feel “uncomfortable” (ie : f… off now! Stop it!)
- he doesn’t understand and continues…

Where do you draw the line?
In theory as soon as possible.
In practice… hard to judge for someone else and the context.

I mean any of these scenarios should reach to a point when she feels that the messages are beyond her treshold and at that point she should point it out to CH that whatever he is doing makes her uncomfortable and ask him politely to stop. I think 90%+ of these scenarios would stop at this point, you really have to be a psycho to continue after getting a solid red signal. I really can't imagine that a man like Horner would continue after something like this. But if he did that, then it is a crystal clear case of harassment and there is no debate.

Of course it can also happen that she never indicated her resentment towards Horner, just went straight to HR. This scenario is is a bit more debatable as Horner could say he never thought he was in the wrong. So this giver room for more interpretations.
Yes, you can say that a boss should never approach his subordinate "like that". But then again... there is no clear definition of what is over the line.
Sentences like that could be really harmless or could be even creepy, depending on context: "Is that a new dress, it looks really nice!" or "Do you have any plans for the weekend?" Maybe not the best examples, but you know what I mean.

Judging by how long the case has been dragging, it really looks that the situation is not clear cut to either way. So most probably there is no hard evidence from either side and there is a lot of room for interpretations. It is really difficult to judge a case like this fairly for an outsider to be honest.

[dans79]

Judging by how long the case has been dragging, it really looks that the situation is not clear cut to either way. So most probably there is no hard evidence from either side and there is a lot of room for interpretations. It is really difficult to judge a case like this fairly for an outsider to be honest.

Don't underestimate how much behind closed doors face saving is going on.

[f1isgood]

I don't think this is anything of a PR nightmare. Red Bull's budget cap saga and Zak Brown's constant cheating, integrity, independence comments are worse. Having said that, as long as the process was conducted in a proper manner, regardless of the outcome, Red Bull can definitely come out as a winner assuming the outcome is the correct decision. At some level, I am convinced Red Bull believe any publicity is good publicity. They don't sell expensive products anyways.

I strongly disagree. The general public don't even know about Zak's comments and most F1 fans understand they are politically motivated to try and destabilise the Red Bull juggernaut. On the other hand the general public do know who Horner is, even if only as "the husband of Ginger Spice" and a scandal, whether true or not, involving sexual impropriety is never a good thing for sales.

I can't speak for the general public since most of the people I know in some way or the other end up following F1. You could be right here. But I would still like to believe that no normal away from F1 person would be reminded of Horner when buying a can of Red Bull assuming he is guilty.

[Wouter]

* It seems that this is about ***. The Financial Times mentioned "His assistent".

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Seems like it, all her major social media accounts are locked down.

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And she deleted her LinkedIn account today. Yesterday I saw on her LinkedIn she was Executive Assistant since 3.5 year at RBR.
Tonight I saw her account is deleted.

[Mogster]

I don't think this is anything of a PR nightmare. Red Bull's budget cap saga and Zak Brown's constant cheating, integrity, independence comments are worse. Having said that, as long as the process was conducted in a proper manner, regardless of the outcome, Red Bull can definitely come out as a winner assuming the outcome is the correct decision. At some level, I am convinced Red Bull believe any publicity is good publicity. They don't sell expensive products anyways.

I strongly disagree. The general public don't even know about Zak's comments and most F1 fans understand they are politically motivated to try and destabilise the Red Bull juggernaut. On the other hand the general public do know who Horner is, even if only as "the husband of Ginger Spice" and a scandal, whether true or not, involving sexual impropriety is never a good thing for sales.

I can't speak for the general public since most of the people I know in some way or the other end up following F1. You could be right here. But I would still like to believe that no normal away from F1 person would be reminded of Horner when buying a can of Red Bull assuming he is guilty.

Where have you been for the last 5 years or so?

If Horner is guilty, in any form, then the parent company will be seen as enabling his behaviour. Further if he is guilty then this is very likely to involve a pattern of similar behaviour over many years. If Horner was team boss for Mercedes or Renault or Ferrari he’d be gone by now, the likelihood of reputational damage for the parent company is so huge that it’d be a no brainer. Younger people are much more sensitive of this workplace stuff now, and young people are FOMs target audience also…

[littlebigcat]

Not going to lie but cheeking the womans professional and person social media accounts is a bit creepy.

[Wouter]

Not going to lie but cheeking the womans professional and person social media accounts is a bit creepy.

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I don't know what you mean by cheeking. I don't know the word but she had a LinkedIn profile so other people can watch and read it.