BMW to leave Formula One at end of 2009

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bhall
bhall
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Re: BMW to leave F1????

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With engine development frozen and a race calendar that is shifting out of established major markets, there's no reason for BMW (or any other manufacturer team, for that matter) to participate in F1 unless they're winning or they're Ferrari. To a shareholder, it doesn't make sense. I think BMW (and Honda, too) want to be in F1, yet they simply cannot justify the expenditures, and rightfully so.

You really get the feeling that Mosley and Ecclestone are intent upon driving the manufacturers out of F1. I mean, why else would these two mean champion decisions whose consequences are just that?

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: BMW to leave Formula One at end of 2009

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I'm sure they could have easily justified $100M US, which is what their budget would have been for 2010 if the cap wasnt killed off.

SZ
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Re: BMW to leave Formula One at end of 2009

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ISLAMATRON wrote:I'm sure they could have easily justified $100M US, which is what their budget would have been for 2010 if the cap wasnt killed off.
Therein lies the point =D>
xpensive wrote:I wonder, is there any rule preventing one individual from appearing on F1T under a multiplicity of nicks
Got a problem?

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: BMW to leave Formula One at end of 2009

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BMW wouldnt even be putting in that much($100M) since Petronas and Intel kick in some money. They would be kicking in $75Mil max.

BMW get at least $100M worth of marketing/advertising out of F1, but not the $400M they been kicking in since they bought Sauber.

SZ
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Re: BMW to leave Formula One at end of 2009

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ISLAMATRON wrote:BMW wouldnt even be putting in that much($100M) since Petronas and Intel kick in some money. They would be kicking in $75Mil max.

BMW get at least $100M worth of marketing/advertising out of F1, but not the $400M they been kicking in since they bought Sauber.
Quite the shame Credit Suisse left.

They haven't been kicking in anywhere near $400m, but if the cap went through (or expenditure was cut to similar levels) they could comfortably run the team for less than what they're putting in now - as in it'd be cheaper, even without a single dollar from a sponsor.

That's why there's pressure to get costs down. The indecision from FOTA on costs rendered the whole thing a bit of a suck-it-and-see regards what it'd cost to go racing in 2010 and beyond.

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flynfrog
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Re: BMW to leave Formula One at end of 2009

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the cap would not have saved honda or BMW. they were not winning they took there ball and went home. It doesn't look good to back mark the field as a manufacture no matter how little you spend. You guys think the budget cap would save the planet and give every one a free puppy too. Its a bad idea the teams know it. I say thanks for the race BMW see you around.

SZ
SZ
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Re: BMW to leave Formula One at end of 2009

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So Ferrari should leave after this season?
Renault after 07?
Williams should have left a while ago?
New teams shouldn't bother entering because they won't win for a while?

BMW shouldn't enter any race category they don't win in no matter how much or little it costs (doesn't explain their involvement elsewhere)?

It's a bad idea... why?

timbo
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Re: BMW to leave Formula One at end of 2009

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SZ wrote:So Ferrari should leave after this season?
Renault after 07?
Williams should have left a while ago?
New teams shouldn't bother entering because they won't win for a while?

BMW shouldn't enter any race category they don't win in no matter how much or little it costs (doesn't explain their involvement elsewhere)?

It's a bad idea... why?
This is all about your agenda and game face. BMW is a premium brand. For Renault, being in F1 (with reasonably good results = not being last on the grid for too long) is OK. For BMW - no. It should be winning or at least have a smartest look.
Williams is completely different story as is Ferrari.

For some problems cap creates read this http://pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news ... t_id=38329

xpensive
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Re: BMW to leave Formula One at end of 2009

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I agree with you as usual timbo. But I also think that a company of BMWs status and integrity, it became embarrassing for the management when they realized how the FIA/CVC was run and run by sheer profiteers.
Finally, when FOTA failed to come true on a beakaway series, they had enough.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

SZ
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Re: BMW to leave Formula One at end of 2009

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No agenda nor game face here, just rational arguments.

Williams is just in F1 to race for as long as is financially feasible, which if not for extraordinary assistance from the FIA, they currently wouldn't be able to do.

You're completely wrong if you think Renault's management board is happy to go a few seasons without winning. The same Renault that had 80+% of stock value wiped off the sharemarket in the previous financial year? I'm sure at the last board meeting everyone sat around and said 'hmm, we're laying off staff and bleeding cash everywhere but another losing season in F1 where every initiative to cut costs falls flat on it's ass looks like a great idea!' Renault's fortunate to have had a performance upturn late last year and a few good wins or if it wouldn't favour heavily reduced cost - running your thoughts with the hundred or so staff out of work at Enstone earlier this year might get you a different opinion about how 'OK' it is to be running in a cost-unlimited category indefinitely. They might suggest that Renault came very close to not being on the grid at all this year.

Ferrari's only different as they can afford ($) to be. I've nothing against their situation, I'd just wish for all teams to be as fortunate.

I've read that pitpass link before. It hinges on some key assumptions:

1 - that the proposed solution is definitively after a budget cap
2 - that it would be lifted in future
3 - that sponsors can currently cleanly afford entry into F1
4 - that with reduced operating costs sponsors would still want to contribute towards F1 by fixed proportion of a team's operating budget
5 - that the equity in association with an F1 team is tied to space on the car at a set price
6 - that it would cost >$16m to run a 'sponsorship acquisition department'

These are hysterically poor assumptions...

1 - (Again) it's not necessarily - and not probably - a cap that's sought, but a set of serious cost reductions.
2 - The aim isn't to make it cheaper only so it can be made more expensive in future. It's to keep it cheaper.
3 - Numerous sponsors have left. Renault - who you seem to believe is happy throwing cash away because their brand is worth less than BMW's (wouldn't that mean they've less to contribute?) - have lost their current title sponsor. BMW lost CS. Many others have reduced their contribution in light of the economic crisis - F1 still gives them the same exposure, but the cost of entry is consequently worth less.
4 - If this were true then Williams etc should want cost reduction so they always be at a loss relative to their operating budget. Ridiculous. If F1 has a high brand equity with a high entry cost as the article cites, demand is high and teams should still be able negotiate high sponsor commitments, meaning that the average proportion of sponsor contributions to a team operating budget would be proportionately higher, even if the actual contribution were diminished somewhat - the latter point being what makes it equitable for teams and sponsors alike.
5 - it's not. It's tied to an association with an international roadshow transcending a number of international markets. Paddock presence is worth far more than the sticker on the car, or the biggest sponsor in the sport (Philip Morris) wouldn't be in it.
6 - Ha ha ha ha... what, as if teams have hordes on phones cold-calling potential sponsors? I've love to see the job ads on Autosport... teams don't have $16m of aerodynamicists on payroll, they're more qualified and they make the car fast!

Don't just quote articles you're not prepared to critique yourself; think about it.

Why do you think a cap isn't good for F1, or, more to the point, for BMW? Their actions this week shows they won't compete under the current rules at any price - why do you think it wouldn't have been equitable to do so at a lower price?

How much money do you really think it should take to go racing in F1 under the current rules - or what would have to change about the rules themselves? I don't want to argue with you as to right and wrong - I just want to hear your original thoughts on it. Go on... what's your number and why.

I'd love to have the BMW board of directors answer that question, as it'd be a good lesson for people involved in F1 everywhere - from the FIA to the fans - to take heed of.
xpensive wrote:I agree with you as usual timbo.
As usual, but do you have anything original to say?

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: BMW to leave Formula One at end of 2009

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I try the occational original engineering discussions, SZ. But what you should try is to boil down you postings somewhat, doubt if very many here has the stamina to read your novels in their entirety?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

timbo
timbo
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Re: BMW to leave Formula One at end of 2009

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SZ, you asked flynfrog whether Williams and Ferrari should leave after not having major success. That's what I answered. And you confirmed it too - as long as being in F1 is feasible to Williams they would stay in F1 as Ferrari would. And that does not depend on whether they successful or not, but does that matter for BMW?
Of course Renault is not happy without wins but at least they won 2005-2006.
xpensive wrote:But I also think that a company of BMWs status and integrity, it became embarrassing for the management when they realized how the FIA/CVC was run and run by sheer profiteers.
Finally, when FOTA failed to come true on a beakaway series, they had enough.
Agreed. The fact that they had to commit for another 3 years also made matters worse. Probably they would be happier in all manufacturers show, where they would decide what races would they have etc... Kinda like DTM version of F1.

SZ
SZ
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Joined: 21 May 2007, 11:29

Re: BMW to leave Formula One at end of 2009

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Timbo... wins help make the case. I don't doubt there's a marketing argument. There's a financial one too concerning championship position. The overall case to continue or otherwise is a financial case. Either it brings a net gain for what the involvement costs or it doesn't. Marketability arguments can be essentially distilled to the same base.

The question I've got for you - because I'm interested in your opinion - is simply what do you think F1 should cost to remain financially equitable? Because a well-finded team just dropped out after deciding it's not so.

Renault is more than not happy... Renault shed about 20% of it's workforce. When the rest of the grid isn't doing similarly it's a lot to give away in terms of competitiveness.

The 'DTM version of F1' isn't consistent with F1 being a premier prototype class. I doubt BMW would have joined were this an aim. You'll hear no argument from me on CVC profiting more than they should though, its ridiculous -
SZ wrote:Just as BMW has made a business case for leaving F1, the FIA doesn't seem to want to make one for keeping them in the sport.
xpensive, I'll try make things shorter.

timbo
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Re: BMW to leave Formula One at end of 2009

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SZ wrote:The question I've got for you - because I'm interested in your opinion - is simply what do you think F1 should cost to remain financially equitable? Because a well-finded team just dropped out after deciding it's not so.
Well, you may see that my point was that although huge costs made things worse for BMW, their decision was not based ultimately on cost basis. It is a question of cost vs return, so my question is had BMW lead WCC up to this point would they withdraw?

And, we have news on the subject
AUTOSPORT understands that the team currently known as BMW Sauber has been given a deadline of next Wednesday (5 August) to sign up to the deal if the German manufacturer decides to open the operation up to a potential rescue package following its decision to quit F1.
Let's wait. Would be glad to see Sauber guys on board for next year. Is it possible that Mario stays?

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WhiteBlue
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Re: BMW to leave Formula One at end of 2009

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I would expect Theissen to remain BMW motor sport director. I do not expect him to hold an active management role in a new F1 team.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)