Christian Horner under Investigation

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f1jcw
f1jcw
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Joined: 21 Feb 2019, 21:15

Re: Christian Horner under Investigation

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Zynerji wrote:
24 Feb 2024, 14:44
I had a thought this am about this situation.

Going total tin-foil hat here, but hear me out.

Honda + RBR win championship. Honda pull out of F1
Honda transfers IP to RBT
RBT sign with Ford for 2026.
Honda want back in, but RBR has a new partner, so they sign with AM.
RBR trigger HR investigation and hype it in the media to force Ford to walk away due to image problems.
Investigation ends inconclusively and is settled internally.
RBR Honda is a thing again.
There is no way Honda will ever transfer IP

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Zynerji
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Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: Christian Horner under Investigation

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f1jcw wrote:
24 Feb 2024, 14:47
Zynerji wrote:
24 Feb 2024, 14:44
I had a thought this am about this situation.

Going total tin-foil hat here, but hear me out.

Honda + RBR win championship. Honda pull out of F1
Honda transfers IP to RBT
RBT sign with Ford for 2026.
Honda want back in, but RBR has a new partner, so they sign with AM.
RBR trigger HR investigation and hype it in the media to force Ford to walk away due to image problems.
Investigation ends inconclusively and is settled internally.
RBR Honda is a thing again.
There is no way Honda will ever transfer IP
So. The 2026 RBT Ford has no Honda DNA?

mendis
mendis
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Joined: 03 Jul 2022, 16:12

Re: Christian Horner under Investigation

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Zynerji wrote:
24 Feb 2024, 14:56
f1jcw wrote:
24 Feb 2024, 14:47
Zynerji wrote:
24 Feb 2024, 14:44
I had a thought this am about this situation.

Going total tin-foil hat here, but hear me out.

Honda + RBR win championship. Honda pull out of F1
Honda transfers IP to RBT
RBT sign with Ford for 2026.
Honda want back in, but RBR has a new partner, so they sign with AM.
RBR trigger HR investigation and hype it in the media to force Ford to walk away due to image problems.
Investigation ends inconclusively and is settled internally.
RBR Honda is a thing again.
There is no way Honda will ever transfer IP
So. The 2026 RBT Ford has no Honda DNA?
No Honda IP for Red Bull.

https://www.grandprix.com/news/no-honda ... -2026.html

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Zynerji
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Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: Christian Horner under Investigation

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mendis wrote:
24 Feb 2024, 15:30
Zynerji wrote:
24 Feb 2024, 14:56
f1jcw wrote:
24 Feb 2024, 14:47


There is no way Honda will ever transfer IP
So. The 2026 RBT Ford has no Honda DNA?
No Honda IP for Red Bull.

https://www.grandprix.com/news/no-honda ... -2026.html
If you think about it, your point kind of reinforces my thought. It would be best for a RBR-Honda open tie up to overcome this limitation.

mendis
mendis
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Joined: 03 Jul 2022, 16:12

Re: Christian Horner under Investigation

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Zynerji wrote:
24 Feb 2024, 17:13
mendis wrote:
24 Feb 2024, 15:30
Zynerji wrote:
24 Feb 2024, 14:56


So. The 2026 RBT Ford has no Honda DNA?
No Honda IP for Red Bull.

https://www.grandprix.com/news/no-honda ... -2026.html
If you think about it, your point kind of reinforces my thought. It would be best for a RBR-Honda open tie up to overcome this limitation.
If you don't know, here is interesting info. Honda's Yamamoto who was their engine guys, is now working for RBPT, along with their engineers.

https://www.grandprix.com/news/hondas-f ... -bull.html

Arcanum
Arcanum
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Joined: 19 May 2021, 13:52

Re: Christian Horner under Investigation

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Unless the 2026 RBPT PU has been created by a group of engineers who've never looked at a Honda PU, there will inevitably be Honda IP in the RBPT PU.

Honda may not explicitly licence their IP to RBPT. However, in the IP world there is a concept called residuals, which essentially means an engineer cannot unlearn knowledge. Refrigeration periods and gardening leave provide a time limited way to prevent knowledge being applied to competitor products, but you cannot unlearn knowledge in someone's head. A key point of residuals being that it's knowledge you can remember unaided, which prevents someone from retaining Honda specifications, or keeping hold of notes/logbooks/specifications that were written during the RBR-Honda partnership.

Patents are not necessarily a protection, either, because any legal team with an understanding of IP would ensure that their team cannot be polluted and would have a license.

Long story short, if RBPT engineers had visibility of the Honda PU from when they were partners, it would be hard to say they cannot use Honda IP in the RBPT PU. They just won't have an explicit license to the Honda IP, and can only work with what they can remember, unaided.

Luscion
Luscion
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Joined: 13 Feb 2023, 01:37

Re: Christian Horner under Investigation

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CEO of Ford doesnt seem happy the issue is still unresolved - https://apnews.com/article/f1-red-bull- ... aab1b67ff6

“As we have indicated previously, without satisfactory response, Ford’s values are non-negotiable,” Farley wrote in the letter. “It is imperative that our racing partners share and demonstrate a genuine commitment to those same values. My team and I are available at any time to discuss this matter. We remain insistent on, and hopeful, for a resolution we can all stand behind.”

Farley wrote that although Ford trusts the investigation is fair, the company is “increasingly frustrated, however, by the lack of resolution or clear indication from you about when you anticipate a fair and just resolution of this matter."

“We are likewise frustrated by the lack of full transparency surrounding this matter with us, your corporate partners, and look forward to receiving a complete account of all findings.”

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zeroday
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Joined: 29 Jan 2023, 16:25

Re: Christian Horner under Investigation

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Luscion wrote:
25 Feb 2024, 19:26
CEO of Ford doesnt seem happy the issue is still unresolved - https://apnews.com/article/f1-red-bull- ... aab1b67ff6

“As we have indicated previously, without satisfactory response, Ford’s values are non-negotiable,” Farley wrote in the letter. “It is imperative that our racing partners share and demonstrate a genuine commitment to those same values. My team and I are available at any time to discuss this matter. We remain insistent on, and hopeful, for a resolution we can all stand behind.”

Farley wrote that although Ford trusts the investigation is fair, the company is “increasingly frustrated, however, by the lack of resolution or clear indication from you about when you anticipate a fair and just resolution of this matter."

“We are likewise frustrated by the lack of full transparency surrounding this matter with us, your corporate partners, and look forward to receiving a complete account of all findings.”
I have to assume RedBull are just hoping everyone will forget and get distracted by the next shiny object, as is common historically in the F1 space. Ford is clearly new to this.

toraabe
toraabe
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Re: Christian Horner under Investigation

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Well. Ford can decide to pull out because of this. Honda is long gone. Ferrari and Mercedes will definitely not deliver, so.....

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denyall
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Location: California, USA

Re: Christian Horner under Investigation

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As with Porsche and now Ford, RB does not see their partners as equals. I imagine that RB will laugh at this letter as they obviously have ignored previous communication from Ford on this.


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chrisc90
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Joined: 23 Feb 2022, 21:22

Re: Christian Horner under Investigation

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toraabe wrote:
25 Feb 2024, 20:27
Well. Ford can decide to pull out because of this. Honda is long gone. Ferrari and Mercedes will definitely not deliver, so.....
Honda still there delivering to AMR aren’t they?

Ford have more to lose pulling out. It would leave RB without someone to develop the battery side however
Mess with the Bull - you get the horns.

f1jcw
f1jcw
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Re: Christian Horner under Investigation

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denyall wrote:
25 Feb 2024, 20:38
As with Porsche and now Ford, RB does not see their partners as equals. I imagine that RB will laugh at this letter as they obviously have ignored previous communication from Ford on this.
Don't leave Renault out.

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denyall
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Joined: 02 Mar 2023, 19:46
Location: California, USA

Re: Christian Horner under Investigation

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f1jcw wrote:
denyall wrote:
25 Feb 2024, 20:38
As with Porsche and now Ford, RB does not see their partners as equals. I imagine that RB will laugh at this letter as they obviously have ignored previous communication from Ford on this.
Don't leave Renault out.
Indeed, how did I forget the PU partner they were most toxic and least respectful with...

taperoo2k
taperoo2k
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Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 17:33

Re: Christian Horner under Investigation

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chrisc90 wrote:
25 Feb 2024, 20:39
toraabe wrote:
25 Feb 2024, 20:27
Well. Ford can decide to pull out because of this. Honda is long gone. Ferrari and Mercedes will definitely not deliver, so.....
Honda still there delivering to AMR aren’t they?

Ford have more to lose pulling out. It would leave RB without someone to develop the battery side however
Ford's brand image comes before all else, they'll look for other ways to get back into F1 if the Red Bull deal falls through. It's Red Bull Racing who have more to lose here, if Ford pull out it doesn't leave them with a lot of time to get a new hybrid system up and running before 2026. Ford has the expertise with hybrid and battery systems, Red Bull Power Trains do not.

maxxer
maxxer
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Joined: 13 May 2013, 12:01

Re: Christian Horner under Investigation

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Wondering if the ballot rules will stay the same :

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/how-f ... 5/4988995/

Might end up forced to use the engines from the supplier who has the least customers than.