2024 Pre-Season Testing - Bahrain International Circuit, Feb 21 - 23

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gyro4321
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Re: 2024 Pre-Season Testing - Bahrain International Circuit, Feb 21 - 23

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Vanja #66 wrote:
24 Feb 2024, 23:09
AR3-GP wrote:
24 Feb 2024, 22:00
Vanja why do you do this to me? :lol:

Verstappen's PU detune is clear and the level is very high:
So let's instead also include actual historical data into equation. Here's Bahrain 2023 Race, Bahrain 2024 Test Day 3 and AD 2023 Race. The speed difference in 2023 Bahrain race is much higher than 2024 test, no? That's because Leclerc had a notably smaller rear wing. :wink: On other hand, AD 2023 race shows pretty much the same difference as Bahrain 2024 Test. You can check the lap numbers on traces and you'll see they are quite comparable. Other than typical difference for both cars due to alternating more or less harvesting in push/harvest laps, you won't find anything else. That's all from my side on this topic.
Wasn't Leclerc about 1.5s behind Verstappen for the most of the first stint at Abu Dhabi 2023? Surely the slipstream will have helped him a bit so I don't think it can be a particularly fair comparison.

ferkan
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Re: 2024 Pre-Season Testing - Bahrain International Circuit, Feb 21 - 23

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For what is worth, Ferrari was much closer to RB in Bahrain 2023 then they were a week before during tests.

I still think we wont see 0.5s+ difference, rather 2 or 3 tenths.

F1Uno is saying Ferrari used detuned engine performance not solely by looking at traces but onboard info for ERS usage and engine modes. But anyway, not too long now, only 5 days from FP1 :)

f1isgood
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Re: 2024 Pre-Season Testing - Bahrain International Circuit, Feb 21 - 23

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I think over one lap Ferrari will be at least as good as the last couple of years, assuming standard development. It is during race stints that RB will have an advantage. How large? That is the question we all look forward to answering.

f1jcw
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Re: 2024 Pre-Season Testing - Bahrain International Circuit, Feb 21 - 23

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ferkan wrote:
25 Feb 2024, 13:12
For what is worth, Ferrari was much closer to RB in Bahrain 2023 then they were a week before during tests.

I still think we wont see 0.5s+ difference, rather 2 or 3 tenths.

F1Uno is saying Ferrari used detuned engine performance not solely by looking at traces but onboard info for ERS usage and engine modes. But anyway, not too long now, only 5 days from FP1 :)
Ferrari go good in Bahrain though, so is it 2/3 tenths in Bahrain but that will stretch to 5/6 tenths in other less favourable tracks.

2/3 tenths is fightable

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chrisc90
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Re: 2024 Pre-Season Testing - Bahrain International Circuit, Feb 21 - 23

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I reckon PU and Max's earlier lifting was costing him around 0.671 between his fastest quali lap and the pre-season testing lap of this year. That's on the straights alone not even counting the corners.

(simply added up the time difference between the start of the straight when got on the power after the corner and when lifted off on the qualifying lap.

Of course thats not taking into account the better cornering speeds. I think the tyre compounds are the same (M being the C1 during the test and C1 being S in qualifying).

Charles I reckon about 8tenths.
Last edited by chrisc90 on 25 Feb 2024, 13:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Sieper
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Re: 2024 Pre-Season Testing - Bahrain International Circuit, Feb 21 - 23

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gyro4321 wrote:
25 Feb 2024, 02:18
Vanja #66 wrote:
24 Feb 2024, 23:09
AR3-GP wrote:
24 Feb 2024, 22:00
Vanja why do you do this to me? :lol:

Verstappen's PU detune is clear and the level is very high:
So let's instead also include actual historical data into equation. Here's Bahrain 2023 Race, Bahrain 2024 Test Day 3 and AD 2023 Race. The speed difference in 2023 Bahrain race is much higher than 2024 test, no? That's because Leclerc had a notably smaller rear wing. :wink: On other hand, AD 2023 race shows pretty much the same difference as Bahrain 2024 Test. You can check the lap numbers on traces and you'll see they are quite comparable. Other than typical difference for both cars due to alternating more or less harvesting in push/harvest laps, you won't find anything else. That's all from my side on this topic.
Wasn't Leclerc about 1.5s behind Verstappen for the most of the first stint at Abu Dhabi 2023? Surely the slipstream will have helped him a bit so I don't think it can be a particularly fair comparison.
He was, and we will have only 2 laps without DRS this year (last year 3) so if the differences are similar this year that is almost guaranteed.

AR3-GP
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Re: 2024 Pre-Season Testing - Bahrain International Circuit, Feb 21 - 23

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ferkan wrote:
25 Feb 2024, 13:12
F1Uno is saying Ferrari used detuned engine performance not solely by looking at traces but onboard info for ERS usage and engine modes. But anyway, not too long now, only 5 days from FP1 :)
What he said was that Ferrari used a sustainable race mode in the race sim, but did not use the "extra boost" (the one for qualifying) over any long duration, because it is not sustainable in the race.

So both statements are true. Ferrari didn't use max power, but that is because max power isn't used in the race with the exception of overtaking and/or qualifying.
On the other hand, during aGrand Prix you can't keep such a high pace for 15 laps, so testing a scenario at maximum power would not provide great advantages.

Receiving the order to push and not manage the tires to understand the consumption of the SF-24 compounds does not mean being able to have maximum power on the internal combustion engine and hybrid system for the entire Run .


The point was to compare Ferrari's sustainable power setting to that of RB. If you look at Perez race simulation on Thursday during the heat of the day, you find Perez's sustainable power setting is much higher than that of Verstappen. So regardless of what Ferrari have done, there's much more to come from Verstappen.

I also don't know why this has become such a debate. The telemetry traces are clear. There is almost no clipping on Leclerc's car during his race simulations. When Ferrari uses conservative PU modes during FP1 last year, they would clip from the middle of the straight, it was a massive drop in the data. This isn't the same.
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Alexf1
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Re: 2024 Pre-Season Testing - Bahrain International Circuit, Feb 21 - 23

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Sieper wrote:
25 Feb 2024, 13:44
gyro4321 wrote:
25 Feb 2024, 02:18
Vanja #66 wrote:
24 Feb 2024, 23:09


So let's instead also include actual historical data into equation. Here's Bahrain 2023 Race, Bahrain 2024 Test Day 3 and AD 2023 Race. The speed difference in 2023 Bahrain race is much higher than 2024 test, no? That's because Leclerc had a notably smaller rear wing. :wink: On other hand, AD 2023 race shows pretty much the same difference as Bahrain 2024 Test. You can check the lap numbers on traces and you'll see they are quite comparable. Other than typical difference for both cars due to alternating more or less harvesting in push/harvest laps, you won't find anything else. That's all from my side on this topic.
Wasn't Leclerc about 1.5s behind Verstappen for the most of the first stint at Abu Dhabi 2023? Surely the slipstream will have helped him a bit so I don't think it can be a particularly fair comparison.
He was, and we will have only 2 laps without DRS this year (last year 3) so if the differences are similar this year that is almost guaranteed.
I thought activation begins at the beginning of lap 2:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... Tua6i.html

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Vanja #66
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Re: 2024 Pre-Season Testing - Bahrain International Circuit, Feb 21 - 23

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As for complaints and claims after my brief analysis of RB-Ferrari laps in a few occasions, I see Perez is used as some kind of proof of different mappings etc. What these claims fail to note is a decent difference in top speeds of RB cars in different laps during the same exact stint which extends beyond harvest-lap/push-lap switching. I've posted a few times about it last year, pointing out that Max was usually the one exhibiting bigger differences in Top Speed during any race - the later the race went on the higher the TS figures.

What emerged during 2023 is RB actually perfected with Honda some deployment strategies that extend the tyre life. Ferrari hired some engineers and started doing this as well in the second half of the season, but it wasn't as visible. The usual signs were and still are slower acceleration and lower TS figures at the beginning of each stint and highest figures in the lap before the in-lap. On Soft tyres, the effect was more pronounced (more often than not) than Mediums and Hards in each weekend.

Therefore, the following are comparisons of C3-compound stints of Perez 2023 race, Perez 2024 Day 2 1st stint and Verstappen Day 3 1st stint. Verstappen was only slightly more conservative during 1st stint in 2023 to keep in check any gearbox issues, so I'm not looking at that stint now. These are all 1st stints, Perez was running a full-race simulation on Day 2, so the only potential outlier concerning starting weight is Max on his stint.

Image

Obvious outliers:

1) Perez was immediately pushing on SF straight in 2023 Race as he was overtaken by Leclerc in Lap 1 and was forced to push to stay ahead. He was also 1-1.5s away from Leclerc the whole time, so there was a notable draft from Leclerc on every straight.

2) Max' lap 18 on Day 3 was 2nd lap of the stint and he was harvesting the most during that particular lap. TS figure is the same as Perez Lap 24 on SF straight, but other straights show Max was harvesting more.

3) Max' figures on straights I noted as cases 2 (T3-T4) and 3 (T10-T11) are very much the same as Perez' figures on his Lap 31, while 4th straight (noted as case 5) is slightly slower for Max

4) Case 4 is Turn 12. This was a massive outlier for Max as I noted yesterday, while comparing with Aston, McLaren and Ferrari. Even in 2nd lap of 2024 Day 3 simulation, he was pushing a lot more than Perez was at any point we are observing. How much power does T12 consume at those speeds? How much power was consumed on his Lap 31 when he went in full throttle and kept accelerating all the time? Does this require extra deployment?

Some very good question we can't answer. One thing is clear - having the car, setup and skill to do it, Max was gaining 0.5-0.6s over Perez on every occasion in T12. Would it be worth harvesting more on straights and use the extra power available to pull this off? Absolutely. Is this what happened? Only RB can answer that.

The point of this post is not to argue that Max was using full-race-level power available during his stints. It wasn't the case for every lap in his simulated stints, just as it wasn't the case on every lap in any race last year. RB is doing things differently regarding deployment and this has been happening even in 2022 to a lesser extent (not sure if it was also there before). Their figures are spread far more during 1 stint and also the whole race more than their direct competitors (at least) even when they are leading unopposed. Which is why we can't take any 2 laps of RB cars at different times in different stints and compare them 1-on-1 and conclude that 1 lap showing lower TS figures and more harvesting as evidence that the whole stint (let alone race/sim) was performed at lower power levels.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

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AR3-GP
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Re: 2024 Pre-Season Testing - Bahrain International Circuit, Feb 21 - 23

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Vanja #66 wrote:
25 Feb 2024, 22:39
As for complaints and claims after my brief analysis of RB-Ferrari laps in a few occasions, I see Perez is used as some kind of proof of different mappings etc. What these claims fail to note is a decent difference in top speeds of RB cars in different laps during the same exact stint which extends beyond harvest-lap/push-lap switching. I've posted a few times about it last year, pointing out that Max was usually the one exhibiting bigger differences in Top Speed during any race - the later the race went on the higher the TS figures.

What emerged during 2023 is RB actually perfected with Honda some deployment strategies that extend the tyre life. Ferrari hired some engineers and started doing this as well in the second half of the season, but it wasn't as visible. The usual signs were and still are slower acceleration and lower TS figures at the beginning of each stint and highest figures in the lap before the in-lap. On Soft tyres, the effect was more pronounced (more often than not) than Mediums and Hards in each weekend.

Therefore, the following are comparisons of C3-compound stints of Perez 2023 race, Perez 2024 Day 2 1st stint and Verstappen Day 3 1st stint. Verstappen was only slightly more conservative during 1st stint in 2023 to keep in check any gearbox issues, so I'm not looking at that stint now. These are all 1st stints, Perez was running a full-race simulation on Day 2, so the only potential outlier concerning starting weight is Max on his stint.

https://i.ibb.co/Wp2WLcL/2024-bah-red-bull.jpg

Obvious outliers:

1) Perez was immediately pushing on SF straight in 2023 Race as he was overtaken by Leclerc in Lap 1 and was forced to push to stay ahead. He was also 1-1.5s away from Leclerc the whole time, so there was a notable draft from Leclerc on every straight.

2) Max' lap 18 on Day 3 was 2nd lap of the stint and he was harvesting the most during that particular lap. TS figure is the same as Perez Lap 24 on SF straight, but other straights show Max was harvesting more.

3) Max' figures on straights I noted as cases 2 (T3-T4) and 3 (T10-T11) are very much the same as Perez' figures on his Lap 31, while 4th straight (noted as case 5) is slightly slower for Max

4) Case 4 is Turn 12. This was a massive outlier for Max as I noted yesterday, while comparing with Aston, McLaren and Ferrari. Even in 2nd lap of 2024 Day 3 simulation, he was pushing a lot more than Perez was at any point we are observing. How much power does T12 consume at those speeds? How much power was consumed on his Lap 31 when he went in full throttle and kept accelerating all the time? Does this require extra deployment?

Some very good question we can't answer. One thing is clear - having the car, setup and skill to do it, Max was gaining 0.5-0.6s over Perez on every occasion in T12. Would it be worth harvesting more on straights and use the extra power available to pull this off? Absolutely. Is this what happened? Only RB can answer that.

The point of this post is not to argue that Max was using full-race-level power available during his stints. It wasn't the case for every lap in his simulated stints, just as it wasn't the case on every lap in any race last year. RB is doing things differently regarding deployment and this has been happening even in 2022 to a lesser extent (not sure if it was also there before). Their figures are spread far more during 1 stint and also the whole race more than their direct competitors (at least) even when they are leading unopposed. Which is why we can't take any 2 laps of RB cars at different times in different stints and compare them 1-on-1 and conclude that 1 lap showing lower TS figures and more harvesting as evidence that the whole stint (let alone race/sim) was performed at lower power levels.
This is a good post. 2 comments.

1) It remains to be seen whether RB still choose to limit their power usage in the opening stint if there is a challenge for position.

RB had a luxury last year. They could really over-manage the situation. That may not be the case this season. If their position is threatened, the Perez plots still give you an idea of how much quicker it might go. There's nothing really crazy in the Perez plots either. They just approach the norm (Ferrari,Mercedes, Mclaren).

2) Perez race simulation is in the day time so I wouldn't read too much into cornering speeds. The track is much worse for Perez and also possible he's not comfortable with balance in high speed, like previous seasons.
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dialtone
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Re: 2024 Pre-Season Testing - Bahrain International Circuit, Feb 21 - 23

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AR3-GP wrote:
1) It remains to be seen whether RB still choose to limit their power usage in the opening stint if there is a challenge for position.

RB had a luxury last year. They could really over-manage the situation. That may not be the case this season. If their position is threatened, the Perez plots still give you an idea of how much quicker it might go. There's nothing really crazy in the Perez plots either. They just approach the norm (Ferrari,Mercedes, Mclaren).
They did not have that luxury in Silverstone stint 1, Singapore (although you may say they gave up already), Las Vegas and AD where they really had to push compared to other races. Might be worth checking that telemetry.

AR3-GP
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Re: 2024 Pre-Season Testing - Bahrain International Circuit, Feb 21 - 23

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I also think that due to the new DRS regulation, it will be difficult for RB to do what they have done in the past. We might see them take a new approach to the race strategy. Leclerc is going to have DRS on lap 2 and there are 3 DRS zones in Bahrain. Even if Leclerc is slower, he will hang on with DRS easily. It would actually make burning up your tires to escape DRS a bit pointless. They might prefer to just hang around and try and create the 1 second margin in the pitstop cycle.

Although if Leclerc is on pole, Verstappen would have the same benefit and Ferrari would need to think about this too.
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chrisc90
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Re: 2024 Pre-Season Testing - Bahrain International Circuit, Feb 21 - 23

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AR3-GP wrote:
25 Feb 2024, 23:20
I also think that due to the new DRS regulation, it will be difficult for RB to do what they have done in the past. We might see them take a new approach to the race strategy. Leclerc is going to have DRS on lap 2 and there are 3 DRS zones in Bahrain. Even if Leclerc is slower, he will hang on with DRS easily. It would actually make burning up your tires to escape DRS a bit pointless. They might prefer to just hang around and try and create the 1 second margin in the pitstop cycle.

Although if Leclerc is on pole, Verstappen would have the same benefit and Ferrari would need to think about this too.
No different to any other point in the race really. (except tyre offset) a lot of safety car restarts is a perfect example. We did see some cases last year where RB needed to get clever with the use of their recovery in order to get the gap built. Brazil?? springs to mind for some reason.
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AR3-GP
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Re: 2024 Pre-Season Testing - Bahrain International Circuit, Feb 21 - 23

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chrisc90 wrote:
25 Feb 2024, 23:33
AR3-GP wrote:
25 Feb 2024, 23:20
I also think that due to the new DRS regulation, it will be difficult for RB to do what they have done in the past. We might see them take a new approach to the race strategy. Leclerc is going to have DRS on lap 2 and there are 3 DRS zones in Bahrain. Even if Leclerc is slower, he will hang on with DRS easily. It would actually make burning up your tires to escape DRS a bit pointless. They might prefer to just hang around and try and create the 1 second margin in the pitstop cycle.

Although if Leclerc is on pole, Verstappen would have the same benefit and Ferrari would need to think about this too.
No different to any other point in the race really. (except tyre offset) a lot of safety car restarts is a perfect example. We did see some cases last year where RB needed to get clever with the use of their recovery in order to get the gap built. Brazil?? springs to mind for some reason.
In the old regs, DRS was disabled for 2 laps after the SC restart also.
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bluechris
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Re: 2024 Pre-Season Testing - Bahrain International Circuit, Feb 21 - 23

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I dont know why you mention the 2nd lap DRS change? when you remember Max starting first and not in the 1st lap having less than 1.1s from the 2nd? i dont remember a race when that didnt huppened.