BrawnGP

[Jersey Tom]

Jenson made comments that they had a new aero package, but this shouldn't affect the tyre wear rates.

BS.

I think the tyre issues have come straight from trying to change the suspension to aide the heating of the tyres, they have instead just destroyed them.

Doubt it.

[Scotracer]

So wait.. Brawn is the disgner? I thought he just manages things? (honest question)
who are the "real" aerodynamicist and mechanical designer?

I think BrawnGP are just making excuses.. they were the best on tires in the early season (some people even said Button manages tyres the best). All the other teams have to deal with the same conditions too.. all that happened was just that the other teams caught up.

Ross hasn't done any design work for quite a number of years now. He is an engineer but he's a manager now.

[scarbs]

I believe Brawn designed and set the car up to be easy on its tyres.

Perhaps I should have said BrawnGP, I didn't mean Mr Brawn himself...

[i70q7m7ghw]

Jenson made comments that they had a new aero package, but this shouldn't affect the tyre wear rates.

BS.

I think the tyre issues have come straight from trying to change the suspension to aide the heating of the tyres, they have instead just destroyed them.

Doubt it.

Thanks for your contribution =D> Geez.

[Jersey Tom]

Jenson made comments that they had a new aero package, but this shouldn't affect the tyre wear rates.

BS.

I think the tyre issues have come straight from trying to change the suspension to aide the heating of the tyres, they have instead just destroyed them.

Doubt it.

Thanks for your contribution =D> Geez.

No problem.

Aero has heaps to do with tire wear. Aero directly changes balance of the car and dynamic loading.

[mstar]

but surely basic suspension gemotry also alters this? maybe they updated this with new bits in the suspension and this made a little change to tyre temp sensitivity?

[Scotracer]

but surely basic suspension gemotry also alters this? maybe they updated this with new bits in the suspension and this made a little change to tyre temp sensitivity?

Mechanical mass of the car: 605kg @ 58:42 split (guess)

Versus

Aerodynamic load on the car: 2500kg @ 40:60 split (educated guess )

Aero has the biggest effect.

[Jersey Tom]

Personally I think designing a suspension to "heat the tires up" is for the most part a load of crap.

[ISLAMATRON]

alot of graining on the Brawns in Hungary... too much heat into the tires too quickly... the rate of heating is just as important as the total amount of heat, I think they tried to get heat into the tires quicker and they went overboard.

[ringo]

but surely basic suspension gemotry also alters this? maybe they updated this with new bits in the suspension and this made a little change to tyre temp sensitivity?

Mechanical mass of the car: 605kg @ 58:42 split (guess)

Versus

Aerodynamic load on the car: 2500kg @ 40:60 split (educated guess )

Aero has the biggest effect.

Don't want to play devil's advocate, but the aero effect can only be translated through the mechanical aspect of the car. So the suspension bits are actually equally important.
They decide how well the aero load is distributed on the contact patch of each wheel.
A good example are the outrageous camber angles Toyota were running in Germany in an attempt to quickly heat the tires. The Toyotas have good down force; but the problem was inherently with the design of the suspension i guess.

[PlatinumZealot]

Question Question...

Since we are talking about heating tyres..

What components/movements/geometries on the car affect the heating of the tyres?

(I have some ideas my self but people please answer in fine detail)


Which on of the answers do you think is affecting BRAWN GP?

[scarbs]

Some factors affecting tyre usage:
Aero load
Static and dynamic weight distribution
Camber and camber change
Spring rates and Roll rates
Hence also KPI and castor
Damping rates (high frequency)
Inerter rates
And to an extent front pushrod offset to the upright (as it alters weight transfer in turns)

By the way for weight split, its nearer 48\52 F\R with aero split 2% rearwards from that

[Jersey Tom]

Ringo, what makes you think the camber was for heat?

Pretty surprised the weight bias is that far forward. Learn somethin new every day.

[ringo]

Ringo, what makes you think the camber was for heat?

Pretty surprised the weight bias is that far forward. Learn somethin new every day.

More camber means more pressure from weight and aerodynamic load on the inner edges of the tire I would guess. I am no tire or racing expert, but more camber would mean the contact patch will be smaller as the angle increase, even though tire pressure can compensate this. Less tire on the ground for the same heat capacity means more heat.
I don't know how camber affects tire friction in turns either.

[marcush.]

First of all we have to assume the tyre itself is capable of managing the tracksurface ,ambient track temps and tyre loads at the venue .

A tyre too hard compoundwise will never work if ambient/track temps are too low ,some is true for too soft a compound if temps especially tracktemps are soaring.

in these conditions you will either loose the car trying to bring up temps or be dead slow trying to nurse the rubber...

If someone tells you the suspension geometries will have no influence on tyre heat
or tyre heat up,just put a set of new7 fresh slicks on your road car.
You will see two things: very soon the tyres will develop incredible grip but also very soon the tyres will fade fast .If you keep pushing all this will end in massively chunking .
Remove all the rubber/flex from the suspension and you suddenly have a completely new
sensation:the same tyre will need a lot of effort to come up to temperature ,so you need to really stretch yourself to get the tyre up to working temp.But then if you get it there you will have a really enlarged window of time to use the tyre at
or near its maximum.
Two things here :even tyre temps on all four corners will decide if you will be fast or not ,or more precisely if your setup will be constant in behaviour .
If your grip peak on one end of the car is reached and the other and of the car is lagging behind you will face a balance shift towards this end over time .If the other axle is hotter and you will face a no grip situation because of this ,you will have decreasing grip on this axle over time and the balance will degrade as well.
this of course assumes ,both axles peak at the same temperature for the given tyre.
Coming back to the suspension /tyre temp thing:

If Brawn has a high downforce car (as indicated by the slow trapspeeds) One could only argue both drivers are wankers if they are unable to warm up the tyres even in Qualy.
Or would anyone go as far as stating Brawn Aero suffers more in the heat
than Redbulls? i remember in the first years of Sauber they seemed to face that sort of trouble with loosing all front aero when temps rised.

The answer is quite simple : Both RBs are to be counted towards the very best,so the reason behind their difficulties simply the suspension layout of the car.
-be it damper setup,scrub or whatever,add to this a bit of increased heat sensivity of the aero compared to RedBull.

increasing camber for heat? not really .You might get abit of an help as you really work the carcass extremely ,so the heat travels more thru the tyre less thru the compound,but you might face the problem of not properly placing the rubber onto the track,I guess this is really just an act of desperation ...

If you could ,you would of course shift your ballast to the front ,to bring these up to work and the rears should be alright with a litlle more agressive throttle.