Fully undercut sidepods

[manchild]

I was thinking about these side-pods...

It seems to me that they have been thought of in isolation... I feel that the reason for the 'sudden' new side-pod shape is because the front wing has been raised.

If look at a car from the side, the level of the 'cut back' is close to the height of the front wing...

Just a thought - use it or dont use it

You're right about isolated consideration of sidepods, and if I haven't mentioned, that is just a sketch without any specific dimensions and calculations.

If you're thinking of front wing on my drawings than I have to mention that its height isn't a scale/from an actual 2005 car but I've raised it a bit just to make the car look according to 2005 reg.

[kilcoo316]

But you are not doing it for the same reason they did - and this design may not produce the same effects the ferrari's did.

They did it to minimise the turbulence of the airflow coming from the splitter, around the sidepod and going over the top of the diffuser.

From what I've found they did it to improve downforce. What I did comes from a logic that tells - why cut sidepods bit by bit, season after season instead of making one big final cut?

You didn't read my post properly

By minimizing turbulence into the diffuser they increase the amount of downforce it produces - with the radiator exit here that will be impossible.

[manchild]

You didn't read my post properly

By minimizing turbulence into the diffuser they increase the amount of downforce it produces - with the radiator exit here that will be impossible.

Ferrari’s outlet from the sidepods was sideways, right? The impossibility you’re mentioning seams to me a bit abstract… First of all Ferrari’s sidepods didn’t have that much inverted aeronautical wing shape which I’m suggesting.

I can’t specify what would be the exact performance/effect on diffuser you’ve been mentioning but when I think of overall aero efficiency is looks like it can be only better while analyzing/calculating overall downforce is out of my range.

I could try to defend it by saying that I think that my concept would direct much more air stream between the rear wheels, under the rear wing and over the diffuser instead of conventional concepts where much of it is directed too much sideways and lost-dysfunctional in the area of sidepod and therefore also at rear wheels.

[kilcoo316]

The ferrari sidepod had no inverted wing shape. I guess the rad exits were at the same place as the engine exhausts, underneath the lower wing/beam mounting the rear wing to the gearbox.

I cannot give the slightest quantification to my opinion, which may be wrong, however I do feel the radiator exiting to the bottom of the sidepod will create too much turbulence which may prevent flow to the diffuser.

[manchild]

The ferrari sidepod had no inverted wing shape. I guess the rad exits were at the same place as the engine exhausts, underneath the lower wing/beam mounting the rear wing to the gearbox.

I cannot give the slightest quantification to my opinion, which may be wrong, however I do feel the radiator exiting to the bottom of the sidepod will create too much turbulence which may prevent flow to the diffuser.

Check out the links on page 1 of this topic... in 1992 they had sideways outlet while in 1996 it seams to be as you said "...at the same place as the engine exhausts, underneath the lower wing/beam mounting the rear wing to the gearbox".

[kilcoo316]

The ferrari sidepod had no inverted wing shape. I guess the rad exits were at the same place as the engine exhausts, underneath the lower wing/beam mounting the rear wing to the gearbox.

I cannot give the slightest quantification to my opinion, which may be wrong, however I do feel the radiator exiting to the bottom of the sidepod will create too much turbulence which may prevent flow to the diffuser.

Check out the links on page 1 of this topic... in 1992 they had sideways outlet while in 1996 it seams to be as you said "...at the same place as the engine exhausts, underneath the lower wing/beam mounting the rear wing to the gearbox".

Do you see where the sideways exit ducts are??? What are you on about with them interferring with the diffuser then?? They are well clear.

[manchild]

Do you see where the sideways exit ducts are??? What are you on about with them interferring with the diffuser then?? They are well clear.

It was not me mentioning their interference with diffuser, it was you mentioning my concept messing with diffuser

BTW, on 1996 exit ducts are completely different from 1992 car.

[Guest]

[quote="manchild"]


Approximately 90 degrees C of cooling liquid can’t heat up the air that flows trough radiator gills
[/quote="manchild"]
Perhaps you should go back to your books and learn even the most primitive facts before attempting to design the sidepods. Ther's more to it than just an unusual shape.

[manchild]

Approximately 90 degrees C of cooling liquid can’t heat up the air that flows trough radiator gills
[/quote="manchild"]
Perhaps you should go back to your books and learn even the most primitive facts before attempting to design the sidepods. Ther's more to it than just an unusual shape.

Perhaps you shouldn’t intentionally cut out parts of someone’s sentence in order to put him down

I wrote

Approximately 90 degrees C of cooling liquid can’t heat up the air that flows trough radiator gills and than mixes with huge amount of cold air before it reaches the rear end so much that it could melt anything.

Or did you have ice-cream or butter in mind?

[riff_raff]

I'm no aerodynamics expert, but it was explained to me like this:

locate the radiator inlet in a region of high pressure, and locate the radiator outlet in a region of low pressure.

Also, approximately 25% of the energy produced by combusting race fuel ends up being rejected through the engine's cooling system (almost as much energy as ends up going through the crank). Utilizing this waste heat energy in as an efficient manner as possible is very important! Those ridiculous looking chimneys on current F1 cars, take airflow coming off of the radiators, that has just had lots of thermal energy imparted into it and thus increasing its velocity, and directs its flow upward and backward. Producing downforce and thrust, and hopefully not disrupting airflow over the rear wing.

The same situation occurs with waste heat energy coming out the exhaust. In fact, there is more thermal energy going out the exhaust pipe than there is going to the crank!

Lots of gains to be had there for the clever designer.

[Guest]

Approximately 90 degrees C of cooling liquid can’t heat up the air that flows trough radiator gills
[/quote="manchild"]
Perhaps you should go back to your books and learn even the most primitive facts before attempting to design the sidepods. Ther's more to it than just an unusual shape.

Perhaps you shouldn’t intentionally cut out parts of someone’s sentence in order to put him down

I wrote

Approximately 90 degrees C of cooling liquid can’t heat up the air that flows trough radiator gills and than mixes with huge amount of cold air before it reaches the rear end so much that it could melt anything.

Or did you have ice-cream or butter in mind?

Roll your eyes all you want. If I really have to spell it out to you, the cooling system is pressurised and therefore the liquid can be brought over the temperature of a 100C without it boiling away. Therefore a car that loses pressure from the system inevitably has to retire from the race because in the lower pressure the liquid would boil away and the engine overheat and explode. This is all very basic. How can you seriously try to redesign something if you dont even understand the basics of how it works?
So and lol to you.

[manchild]

...Roll your eyes all you want. If I really have to spell it out to you, the cooling system is pressurised and therefore the liquid can be brought over the temperature of a 100C without it boiling away. Therefore a car that loses pressure from the system inevitably has to retire from the race because in the lower pressure the liquid would boil away and the engine overheat and explode. This is all very basic. How can you seriously try to redesign something if you dont even understand the basics of how it works?
So and lol to you.

I wrote "approximately 90 degrees", I know that temperature can exceed 100 degrees but the air that gets heated by flowing trough radiator even on over 100 degrees and afterwards mixes with cold air can’t melt rear tyres.

I really don’t know why I’m even answering on your anonymous post that are obviously nothing more but your attempt to put me down because of what I said about USGP, FIA, Ferrari and Bernie.

The problem isn’t in my knowledge but in your inability to find right argument so instead of this you are signing as Guest and attacking with this meaningless logic. I’m certain that someone else on this forum would notice and mention it if the things you’re mentioning were true.

[DaveKillens]

You know manchild, maybe you should not reply to anyone who signs on as a "guest". You've gotten yourself into a pissing contest with an invisible skunk.
Much of my knowledge comes from the aviation sector. In almost all cases, the intake and exhaust of the radiators is important, gains can be realized by proper design of intake and exhaust of the radiator air. For instance, in the case of the US P-51 Mustang of WW2 vintage, the undebody radiator had a relatively small intake, leading to a larger area where the high velocity air could slow down and enter the actual radiator surface at a slower veolcity, but at a higher air pressure. In the exhaust, the hot air was compressed, and ejected from the rear of the aircraft. In fact, this system was so efficient, it added thrust to the aircraft.
My point is, that proper design of the radiators, with integrated intakes and exhaust can yield positive benefits. Just dumping the air out of the radiator without any conditioning most probably leads to loss of potential efficieincies.

[manchild]

You know manchild, maybe you should not reply to anyone who signs on as a "guest". You've gotten yourself into a pissing contest with an invisible skunk.
Much of my knowledge comes from the aviation sector. In almost all cases, the intake and exhaust of the radiators is important, gains can be realized by proper design of intake and exhaust of the radiator air. For instance, in the case of the US P-51 Mustang of WW2 vintage, the undebody radiator had a relatively small intake, leading to a larger area where the high velocity air could slow down and enter the actual radiator surface at a slower veolcity, but at a higher air pressure. In the exhaust, the hot air was compressed, and ejected from the rear of the aircraft. In fact, this system was so efficient, it added thrust to the aircraft.
My point is, that proper design of the radiators, with integrated intakes and exhaust can yield positive benefits. Just dumping the air out of the radiator without any conditioning most probably leads to loss of potential efficieincies.

You're right about replying, I'm only doing so because I consider silence as approval...

Oh... Mustang, now that is one of my favorite WWII planes, although until your post I thought that this air intake it had was for compressor

[kilcoo316]

You know manchild, maybe you should not reply to anyone who signs on as a "guest". You've gotten yourself into a pissing contest with an invisible skunk.
Much of my knowledge comes from the aviation sector. In almost all cases, the intake and exhaust of the radiators is important, gains can be realized by proper design of intake and exhaust of the radiator air. For instance, in the case of the US P-51 Mustang of WW2 vintage, the undebody radiator had a relatively small intake, leading to a larger area where the high velocity air could slow down and enter the actual radiator surface at a slower veolcity, but at a higher air pressure. In the exhaust, the hot air was compressed, and ejected from the rear of the aircraft. In fact, this system was so efficient, it added thrust to the aircraft.
My point is, that proper design of the radiators, with integrated intakes and exhaust can yield positive benefits. Just dumping the air out of the radiator without any conditioning most probably leads to loss of potential efficieincies.

Yup 100% correct, in F1, I believe the radiator/sidepod is designed to produce thrust (I don't know if I posted that in this thread or elsewhere).


RE the diffuser part, Manchild, the ferrari undercuts were to reduce turbulent flow to the diffuser, with this design, and the radiator exiting directly into this flow, its highly likely the flow will be very turbulent when it reaches the diffuser, and thus result in a loss of downforce.