Piquet - GONE!!! (At Last???)

[SZ]

Ray;

Schumacher for most of his career when interviewed had all the charm of stunned mullet.
Hakkinen was about as personable as a Finnish winter.
Alonso suffers foot-in-mouth disease and sledges his team openly when the car's a bee's dick off perfect (you can bet they love him for that). Otherwise he's threatening his team manager with whistleblowing to the FIA during a current WDC campaign (oh feel the love).
Raikkonen has all the grace to let the world he was taking a --- during Schumacher's final grid photo, and that was all any interviewer got out of him in 2006 - five words - which made it a big year in PR for Kimi.

All very fast drivers. Speed and attitude are not correlated. They're not all as personable as Rossi. I might add they're all probably very nice people in their lives off camera when they're not busy boring you in your armchair on SpeedTV. I'd agree it was more fun knowing Bergher had just tried practical joke #1,298 on some other driver, that Senna was intense, that Mansell would openly eat anyone with a dissenting opinion and that Coulthard strutted around pit girls like James Bond on cocaine, but you'd have a very short career as a team manager if you rate your drivers on public persona.

His excuse for ending up in the gravel is the same as that Vettel had for blowing away Webber's first win, or Hamilton's for repeatedly falling afoul of FIA regs on driver sportsmanship. Inexperience, and plenty of it. For what it's worth it's much easier to throw away your car on rapidly degrading tyres with a high fuel load. This tends to happen when your slower car doesn't sneak into Q1. Which tends to happen when you're not getting the latest upgrades.

Whining about not getting what you want and whining about not getting what you need are two very different things. You're treating them as if they're the same. ISLAMATRON, you also miss this point.

There is no luck in knowing the best you can do, if you drive as well as a two-time WDC, is to be tenths off the pace. Your career will not move forward in the slightest. In racing, if you're not moving forward, you're going backwards. Fast. Unless his father and sponsors bankroll a team or a drive, his F1 career is history and we'll never know if it's because he didn't realise his potential in F1 or because he wasn't given the support to be able to do so. At any rate his career is moved back several years. It'll be another few before he has the same opportunities Hamilton has. A guy he used to dice with regularly in GP2.

It's a job. it's a career just like any other aside from your having a 15 year shelf life before you retire at 35. Noone's sitting around feeling blessed about turning up on the grid. They're all wanting to move forwards and any driver in Nelson's situation would be livid. If anything his reaction is tame. His skills are his asset and if they aren't given a chance to shine - as he's done in every other formula he's competed in - then he's wasting his time. Only rich millionaire playboys sit in F1 cars wondering how "damn lucky" they are to be there.

So "damn lucky" my ass. You'd be far more fortunate having a Minardi back on the grid, where two drivers are given equal spec in relatively uncompetitive cars. You won't win races but you can shine, and your whole season is testing.

After all, some Spanish bloke started his career off as such, then went off to do a year's worth of testing when there were zero bans on just how much you can do. He started out a bit rough but all up the experience seems to have done him a world of good. He's still about as exciting to interview, though.

Mitsuhirato +1.

[DaveKillens]

You make a lot of sense SZ, a lot more than I do at times.

There is substance in Piquet's claim of non-favoritism. For the last half of the 2004 season Trulli also made the very same complaint, about the very same team.

Flavio brags that the Renault team operates on a smaller budget than the big dogs. So it's logical to assume that many aspects of the Renault operations are run on a shoestring budget. As far as upgrades, the factory makes one specimen, rush it to the next race, and give it to the lead driver (Alonso). Then, if the part proves itself, more copies are manufactured, and the second driver finally gets his parts. This is a much cheaper way than banging off three, four parts and giving them to both cars. And I really believe this is how Piquet was treated.

[jddh1]

You make a lot of sense SZ, a lot more than I do at times.

There is substance in Piquet's claim of non-favoritism. For the last half of the 2004 season Trulli also made the very same complaint, about the very same team.

Flavio brags that the Renault team operates on a smaller budget than the big dogs. So it's logical to assume that many aspects of the Renault operations are run on a shoestring budget. As far as upgrades, the factory makes one specimen, rush it to the next race, and give it to the lead driver (Alonso). Then, if the part proves itself, more copies are manufactured, and the second driver finally gets his parts. This is a much cheaper way than banging off three, four parts and giving them to both cars. And I really believe this is how Piquet was treated.

I thought that was the case too until I read the following article:

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/n ... 2144.shtml

Formula One team Renault's costs last year were the highest in the history of the sport, according to the British newspaper The Daily Telegraph.

Compiled after Renault filed its most recent accounts, the report said the US$17m losses were more than double those of 2007, while the costs of nearly $260m represent a 38 percent increase.

The result runs contrary to the belief that Renault is a modest-spending F1 team, with the record costs requiring its French parent to increase rather than decrease its spend.

Renault Group struggled markedly in 2008 while losing nearly $3 billion in net income and announcing mass job losses.

But at the same time its UK-based Formula One team added 17 staff, and boss Flavio Briatore's $1.5m fee slightly increased.

So if they could not give Nelson Jr the same updates as Nando, then what the hell did Flavio spend the money on?

[bhall]

So if they could not give Nelson Jr the same updates as Nando, then what the hell did Flavio spend the money on?

Swimwear!



(Sorry. I'm really quite a child.)

[SZ]

$260m? That's it? Ferrari is known to be around $400m for the same period, McLaren not far behind.

The Daily Telegraph should do a little more homework before going to print, not to mention Renault sacked, what, around 100 people earlier this year.

Maybe they intended to say Renault F1's team were it's highest in the history of the sport.

[jon-mullen]

I don't think FA needed more testing. Rather Renault wanted FA to test more to get more reliable feedback to develop the car. I even think that in an interview earlier this year Piquet said it.

Anyway, I agree with Paul that we have not seen a great drive from him. Even if you do not compare with FA, you see that Piguet performance was not impressive at all. He did make too many driver mistakes.

Thank you! Why would you give new parts requiring feedback and development to a driver who can't stay out of the gravel traps? The only upgrades worth putting on his car are stronger wheel tethers.

I hate when people use those kind of arguments... Lucky? From what I know being able to reach F1 is a lot of hard work and dedication. They need a lot of training and preparation not a four-leaf clover. Might as well say that surgeons should just operate and shut the hell up because they are lucky to be paid to practise surgery.

To me he hasn't done enough whining. Of course he felt unmotivated, I would too if I was given a car that was half a second off the pace of the sister car and yet still have to deliver results, when my two times champion teammate, who's the center of attentions, also has a hard time delivering results, with a better car.

So F1 drivers need hard work and dedication to reach the series but deserve pity when they're in mediocre equipment and become unmotivated? That doesn't really gel, does it?

I think everyone on this forum knows someone like Piquet Jr. who can excel when everything's absolutely perfect but turns into a whiny bitch when they have to dig a little deeper. F1 is a tough sport. If you don't want to trust a shitty car to be flat out 60-70% of the time and pull 4g in the corners, it's probably not for you. The good news is that there's plenty of people that aren't just racing to make daddy happy and would gladly drive your car.

As for comparing him to Hamilton, they're worlds apart.

[SZ]

Well Jon, a whole raft of iffy there;

Every other team on the grid seems capable of putting new parts on two cars most of the time bar Renault whenever one of their cars is driven by Fernando Alonso. Remarkably they found this ability again in 2007, and then lost it again the following two years. Even Ferrari had the decency to put the same parts on Eddie and Rubens' cars most of the time. Some might say they had the brains to do so, as even a first year student engineer will point out that you can't really compare your drivers unless they're in the same fcking car.

So who's the bitch - Piquet or the lead driver that slags off his team openly and demands of his team that the second driver not be allowed to compete with him?

The sheer notion that you and I have time to post on this forum should tell you that compared to Piquet Jr, we're the unmotivated ones. Clearly you have no idea what it takes to make it into F1 as a salaried driver. If you've got the time to post here, you clearly don't have the balls or dedication to match Piquet's achievements. It's a big call to suggest he's 'making daddy happy' or that he's not flat out in what he's given - go on, prove it.

Don't be quick to overrate Lewis. He might have won the scrappiest championship in recent history in a car he should have done much better in, but the last time they raced on a near-equal footing - 2006, Lewis stepped into the championship winning team and won in the penultimate round from Piqet. Third place was miles behind. From there, Lewis stepped straight into what should have been a title winning car with a world champion team mate to follow setup from. Nelson into a turd, a split garage, no nice simulator to train in and the short end of the upgrades stick.

What do you suggest he could have done to make it better?

Because any fool can just criticise, and we all know a fool...

[modbaraban]

I never was a big fan of Piquet jr. but from the Williams testing days I remember he was a tad quicker than Nico, but less consistent and nowhere near as good when it comes to engineering knowledge (doubt if anyone on the grid is). So they picked Rosberg.
But I expected him to do marginally better. I bet he would in a some other team (excluding STR though).

Swimwear!

(Sorry. I'm really quite a child.)

That's almost as foul as your CF aftershave avatar

[nipo]

We would never be able to judge Piquet's performance in a fair way until we do a lot of fact-finding, like lap time analysis and race-by-race inspection of incidents that affected him. Hell, some of the details we need (e.g. setup details/track condition etc.) might never be available to us.

Same when we try to judge LH/FA/RK and the like. Some say LH is very gifted, some question that his results were because he's in the right team with the right car. Some say Jenson is quicker in a good car while Rubens is better at making the most out of shitty machinery. We don't know. We don't know for sure. We read the news and we choose who and what to believe. And we speculate.

But this is a sport and at the end of the day a sport is judged by results. Champions go down in the history books and runners-up disappear into thin air. It's cruel. It's a fact. You might argue that there is no more Minardi, no more testing, no more patience and respect from managers. All true. But it doesn't change the fact that results are results and it's the only sure thing we can use to judge a driver.

I respect the possibility that his poor results could be because of unfair treatment by Flavio, although I tend to believe he made his fair share of mistakes and didn't get the best out of his car. Maybe both. Again I don't know for sure, and it's not the point of argument.

Ray said it well:

So Piquet whined about not getting what he wanted, big damn deal. Get over it. That's life

Exactly. It is something called life. Life throws nasty things at you and you can either take it like a man or moan and whine about it. Piquet chose the latter. Period.

[dumrick]

I join the bandwagon of those who believe Piquet Jr. have the skills to do better than his seasons at Renault show.

I remember him in the lower formulae and surely, he is not exceptional as a race driver, but he always seemed pretty good. A bit like his father that, despite never being exceptional, did exceptional things, like becoming a triple world champion.

[Terrible3]

Piquet is being a poor loser. After failing to deliver he blames everyone but himself. In some act of self redemption he cites all his achievements outside of F1 to justify to himself and his fans that he is in fact a good driver.

Its kinda funny how Piquet points out the fact that the majority of his testing was done in the rain. You would think that this would give him an advantage in the Chinese GP... clearly not the case. He spun twice...

Anyways since Melbourne I was waiting for both Piquet and Bourdais to get sacked... bout time.

[ced ampo]

Why did he pick Briatorie as manager in the first place

[paused]

No choice. If you are new to F1 and want to drive for Renault the only way is too sign a management contract with FB. No contract = no drive

[jon-mullen]

Well Jon, a whole raft of iffy there;

Every other team on the grid seems capable of putting new parts on two cars most of the time bar Renault whenever one of their cars is driven by Fernando Alonso. Remarkably they found this ability again in 2007, and then lost it again the following two years. Even Ferrari had the decency to put the same parts on Eddie and Rubens' cars most of the time. Some might say they had the brains to do so, as even a first year student engineer will point out that you can't really compare your drivers unless they're in the same fcking car.

As I recall, Ferrari, McLaren, and BMW have all run differently spec'd cars in atleast one GP this year. Big money teams that need desperately to find an advantage.

So who's the bitch - Piquet or the lead driver that slags off his team openly and demands of his team that the second driver not be allowed to compete with him?

Speaking of iffy...I don't know that you can claim that Alonso demands that the second driver not be allowed to compete. All I can really think of as far as that goes was...I think it was China '07? Alonso got on the radio and said Lewis was holding him up when the gap was reasonable and wasn't coming down. But, then again, Alonso's got a seat this year and half the management over at McLaren is gone. Maybe it wasn't so one-sided?

As for slogging the team, if anything, in the past couple years Alonso's been like a NASCAR driver, giving boring interviews and making sure he thanks all his sponsors. He's consistently said they're a little off the pace and they need to improve. That's the same thing every driver says when they're not winning. "We'll work harder."

The sheer notion that you and I have time to post on this forum should tell you that compared to Piquet Jr, we're the unmotivated ones. Clearly you have no idea what it takes to make it into F1 as a salaried driver. If you've got the time to post here, you clearly don't have the balls or dedication to match Piquet's achievements. It's a big call to suggest he's 'making daddy happy' or that he's not flat out in what he's given - go on, prove it.

Actually, SZ, I have time to post here because I'm working an underwhelming and emasculating Federal Work Study job while I put myself through school. And whenever I have trouble starting my school work, I think of people like Senna and Shumacher and Alonso. And I've pulled a 4.0 so far. And when I hear people in my classes blame the teacher, blame the textbook, blame their roommates and their parents I have the same response I have for Nelsinho: shut the f$^k up and get on with it. Not that it's any of your business, but I'm succeeding in everything I set out to do so far. Coming in second in the GP2 championship doesn't happen to be on my list, but I'm pretty sure I'll win an F1 championship before Piquet does.

Don't be quick to overrate Lewis. He might have won the scrappiest championship in recent history in a car he should have done much better in, but the last time they raced on a near-equal footing - 2006, Lewis stepped into the championship winning team and won in the penultimate round from Piqet. Third place was miles behind. From there, Lewis stepped straight into what should have been a title winning car with a world champion team mate to follow setup from. Nelson into a turd, a split garage, no nice simulator to train in and the short end of the upgrades stick.

What do you suggest he could have done to make it better?

Because any fool can just criticise, and we all know a fool...

I'm not going to argue this, I don't even like Lewis that much but I have been impressed with him this year. All I can say is Lewis = F1 WDC != Nelsinho.

[SZ]

Jon,

There's a huge difference between running different spec cars to explore different development options and having a car in your team lag behind in signed off performance updates. Not the same thing.

No driver at Renault - since Alonso's first championship - has been given equal gear to compete with.

Half the management at McLaren coming or going has very little to do with Fernando's movements.

It's great for you that you study hard, and I hope this takes you where you want to go. Not that it's any of your business, but my resume's equally stunning - probably more so than yours, simply because I'm beyond school and working. People rely on me to deliver whether they're companies I work with, sponsors, stakeholders, whatever. When I don't get what I'm promised to be able to do my job and it impacts on my ability to deliver to my best, I raise hell, not because I whinge but because my work - like most work - is sufficiently complicated to depend on other people pulling their weight, delivering on time, delivering to spec, and despite my individual brilliance as a skilled employee and pretty good manager of relations among different stakeholders, much like other talented, hardworking individuals I'm not a fcking miracle worker. Real high level work is a team affair and there's no amount of individual 'working harder' that covers for fundamental inadequacies in your team effort whether it's poor team structure, stakeholder relations or just an F1 team intentionally giving you a lesser performing car.

Pulling a 4.0 is an extremely impressive and highly laudable individual achievement (I hope you're studying engineering), and as you may already know, little else in life is. You'll likely have your pick of options, and you'll want to choose what best moves you forward in what you enjoy doing. Were you to go into that next, well earned step in your career and achieve under your potential nowhere through little fault of you're own you'd quite understandably and justifiably frustrated too. Rest assured this has happened (and will continue to happen) to individuals just as talented and with as much potential as yourself. Should this ever occur to you I should hope there are people prepared to judge you on your potential, not solely on the bottom line of your most recent performance, or they may miss out on a good opportunity.

I'm not quite a fan of Lewis or Piquet (I've been a much bigger fan of Vettel as a future prospect, though you're free to disagree). In Lewis' one WDC year, Fernando outscored him - not by a small margin - over the last third of the season in what was an improving albeit inferior car. He might have won a championship but it was the scrappiest affair in recent memory. He's about as convincing an F1 world champion as Nicky Hayden is as a MotoGP champion. He may grow as a driver to be one of the greats but it's yet to happen. I can't tell you that Piquet in the same cars, with the same support over the same period would have done any better however you can't guarantee me that he'd have done any worse.

Neither of them's an Alonso yet (who, incidentally, came into F1 with a lesser resume) and I'm not pretending Piquet's greatness as a F1 driver is yet proven (at best he's got potential with a few years of stunted growth) or that he and his immediate supporters have any more PR skill than Bambi on ice - he's quite immature, makes noises he shouldn't and that letter never, ever should have been released to press. Fernando used to do similarly - and worse - though had the advantage of time in fair if junior team with plenty of support, where he scored zero points and on aggregate made even less of an impression than Webber in a not dissimilar car a year later, then loads of testing time and then even machinery to compete with his teammates with. Despite being an exceptionally capable driver - bar Schumacher's return, very few would argue against him being the most capable on the grid - it's fair to say he's enjoyed significant support and guidance (both on and off track) throughout his career. In the modern era, great results aren't made without it.

I'm not prepared to write Piquet off just yet.