2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[dia6olo]

I’m loathe to get drawn into any Sainz vs Leclerc debates - really all I care about is Ferrari - but I don’t agree that Sainz has better racecraft. I think he’s a smart, thinking driver but lacks an edge in pace and is usually slower over a stint and not quite as good with measured aggression in overtakes/defence as Charles (although he’s certainly not at all bad on the offensive side, as he showed yesterday).

If I could use an analogy: Max for me is like Michael, Charles is like Hakkinen and Carlos is like Coulthard. It’s possible that Mika was a slightly better qualifier than Michael (possible not clear - same with Max/Charles) but Michael could do those quali laps throughout an entire race and with rarely an error. Mika, on the other hand, was massively fast and could fly in a fast car that he liked, but almost through away a title to Irvine due to mistakes (I feel this way about Charles - give him the right car and he could beat Max to a title but Max will almost maximise more and make fewer mistake). Coulthard had his days when he beat Mika and was a genuinely top racing driver; he wasn’t *quite* in the elite group though and it showed over time against first Mika and then Kimi.

Obviously these analogies only go so far - they’re all different people - but it’s how I see the basics of this conversation fwiw.

I am biased, but I think you are being quite harsh on Charles here... I really don't think there is much between the two, just Max having a much better car than the rest of the field allowing him to not really be challenged. You only make mistakes when under pressure as an F1 driver, something we saw Max do in 2021 when Lewis was closing in.

I also agree with this, I feel people to readily ignore the part the car plays, it feels like with some drivers the fact that they have superior machinery is irrelevant, it's all about the superior driver, all those other poor drivers with their inferior cars just get treated as lesser drivers. The fact that they don't have the machinery is irrelevant it seems.

Another measure I find flawed is comparing to team mates.
For one the car is often not the same for both because of differing driving styles.
Another one is that some teams clearly run team orders with some of those second drivers quite frankly being nothing more than a seat filler...

[Andi76]

Ferrari and Haas made the biggest step in terms of race pace

[Vanja #66]

Lower temps. Track was at least a second faster. You don’t hear me saying hard has no deg. Max being a second slower during the stint incorporating the lower fuel is not the deg. Part of it is Max taking it easy.

Unfortunately, I'm not at your level and completely unable to assess the state of a track based on ambient temperature alone. All I can say with 99% certainty is whether someone is managing, pushing or experiencing degradation...

[Jambier]

Better racecraft than Hamilton? I don't think so.

I am comparing to Charles. As for LH what we have been hearing very regularly these days is him talking about chosing the wrong setup while GR got it right. Coming from a 7WDC, I sometimes question if LH can contribute much to Ferrari on setup and development.

I’m loathe to get drawn into any Sainz vs Leclerc debates - really all I care about is Ferrari - but I don’t agree that Sainz has better racecraft. I think he’s a smart, thinking driver but lacks an edge in pace and is usually slower over a stint and not quite as good with measured aggression in overtakes/defence as Charles (although he’s certainly not at all bad on the offensive side, as he showed yesterday).

If I could use an analogy: Max for me is like Michael, Charles is like Hakkinen and Carlos is like Coulthard. It’s possible that Mika was a slightly better qualifier than Michael (possible not clear - same with Max/Charles) but Michael could do those quali laps throughout an entire race and with rarely an error. Mika, on the other hand, was massively fast and could fly in a fast car that he liked, but almost through away a title to Irvine due to mistakes (I feel this way about Charles - give him the right car and he could beat Max to a title but Max will almost maximise more and make fewer mistake). Coulthard had his days when he beat Mika and was a genuinely top racing driver; he wasn’t *quite* in the elite group though and it showed over time against first Mika and then Kimi.

Obviously these analogies only go so far - they’re all different people - but it’s how I see the basics of this conversation fwiw.

Kinda agree

Charles is doing too much mistakes. I fear it can cost him a title if he have the right car one day.
And I love Charles, and he is mega fast but two many mistakes.

Carlos is underrated, I see a modern day Button in him.
Not fastest on one lap but can deliver good races.

I think Vettel was no better than Carlos.
So Carlos should be a good options for many teams in 2025, even Mercedes I believe but I don’t see him there.

[Vinlarr89]

I’m loathe to get drawn into any Sainz vs Leclerc debates - really all I care about is Ferrari - but I don’t agree that Sainz has better racecraft. I think he’s a smart, thinking driver but lacks an edge in pace and is usually slower over a stint and not quite as good with measured aggression in overtakes/defence as Charles (although he’s certainly not at all bad on the offensive side, as he showed yesterday).

If I could use an analogy: Max for me is like Michael, Charles is like Hakkinen and Carlos is like Coulthard. It’s possible that Mika was a slightly better qualifier than Michael (possible not clear - same with Max/Charles) but Michael could do those quali laps throughout an entire race and with rarely an error. Mika, on the other hand, was massively fast and could fly in a fast car that he liked, but almost through away a title to Irvine due to mistakes (I feel this way about Charles - give him the right car and he could beat Max to a title but Max will almost maximise more and make fewer mistake). Coulthard had his days when he beat Mika and was a genuinely top racing driver; he wasn’t *quite* in the elite group though and it showed over time against first Mika and then Kimi.

Obviously these analogies only go so far - they’re all different people - but it’s how I see the basics of this conversation fwiw.

I am biased, but I think you are being quite harsh on Charles here... I really don't think there is much between the two, just Max having a much better car than the rest of the field allowing him to not really be challenged. You only make mistakes when under pressure as an F1 driver, something we saw Max do in 2021 when Lewis was closing in.

I also agree with this, I feel people to readily ignore the part the car plays, it feels like with some drivers the fact that they have superior machinery is irrelevant, it's all about the superior driver, all those other poor drivers with their inferior cars just get treaded as lesser drivers. The fact that they don't have the machinery is irrelevant it seems.

Another thing they do is compare to team mates but even that is flawed.
For one the car is often not the same for both because of differing driving styles.
Another one is that some teams clearly run team orders with some of those second drivers quite frankly being nothing more than a seat filler...

100% the equipment plays a massive factor in modern day f1 results. However there’s no detracting that LH was a phenomenal driver, personally think he’s faded a bit since 21 but hard to tell given the car he’s had.

Max is also a great driver, you don’t achieve a season like he did last year without being a great driver.

Personally think Leclerc is also a great driver as demonstrated at the start of the 22 season, he just needs the equipment at his disposal which he’s not had since then.

[Vinlarr89]

Not sure how that’s calculated, but likely would have been a bigger step for Ferrari had Charles not had his brake issues.

[Vanja #66]

Charles is doing too much mistakes. I fear it can cost him a title if he have the right car one day.
And I love Charles, and he is mega fast but two many mistakes.

When was the last time he made a mistake in a race that cost him points before and after France 2022?

[SoulPancake13]

Charles is doing too much mistakes. I fear it can cost him a title if he have the right car one day.
And I love Charles, and he is mega fast but two many mistakes.

When was the last time he made a mistake in a race that cost him points before and after France 2022?

Not that I agree per se, but he made contact with Piastri in Zandvoort, and the result was the front wing endplate getting stuck under his car, if you would count that. I personally wouldn't but...

[SoulPancake13]

Ferrari and Haas made the biggest step in terms of race pace

https://postimg.cc/2b439cPy

Pretty sure they averaged Max and Checo's times here, but nonetheless strong step forward.

[dia6olo]

I am biased, but I think you are being quite harsh on Charles here... I really don't think there is much between the two, just Max having a much better car than the rest of the field allowing him to not really be challenged. You only make mistakes when under pressure as an F1 driver, something we saw Max do in 2021 when Lewis was closing in.

I also agree with this, I feel people to readily ignore the part the car plays, it feels like with some drivers the fact that they have superior machinery is irrelevant, it's all about the superior driver, all those other poor drivers with their inferior cars just get treaded as lesser drivers. The fact that they don't have the machinery is irrelevant it seems.

Another thing they do is compare to team mates but even that is flawed.
For one the car is often not the same for both because of differing driving styles.
Another one is that some teams clearly run team orders with some of those second drivers quite frankly being nothing more than a seat filler...

100% the equipment plays a massive factor in modern day f1 results. However there’s no detracting that LH was a phenomenal driver, personally think he’s faded a bit since 21 but hard to tell given the car he’s had.

Max is also a great driver, you don’t achieve a season like he did last year without being a great driver.

Personally think Leclerc is also a great driver as demonstrated at the start of the 22 season, he just needs the equipment at his disposal which he’s not had since then.

Oh I'm in no way disputing some of the talent, even with all the caveats like good car bad car you can still see the drivers that have that something extra.
I'm simply saying the margins between some drivers are nowhere near as big as some like to think they are.
Simply that many ignore the car.

[dia6olo]

I also agree with this, I feel people to readily ignore the part the car plays, it feels like with some drivers the fact that they have superior machinery is irrelevant, it's all about the superior driver, all those other poor drivers with their inferior cars just get treaded as lesser drivers. The fact that they don't have the machinery is irrelevant it seems.

Another thing they do is compare to team mates but even that is flawed.
For one the car is often not the same for both because of differing driving styles.
Another one is that some teams clearly run team orders with some of those second drivers quite frankly being nothing more than a seat filler...

100% the equipment plays a massive factor in modern day f1 results. However there’s no detracting that LH was a phenomenal driver, personally think he’s faded a bit since 21 but hard to tell given the car he’s had.

Max is also a great driver, you don’t achieve a season like he did last year without being a great driver.

Personally think Leclerc is also a great driver as demonstrated at the start of the 22 season, he just needs the equipment at his disposal which he’s not had since then.

Oh I'm in no way disputing some of the talent, even with all the caveats like good car bad car you can still see the drivers that have that something extra.
I'm simply saying the margins between some drivers are nowhere near as big as some like to think they are.
Simply that far to many ignore the car, the team, the number 1 number 2 driver setup some teams have amongst other things.

[deadhead]

Better racecraft than Hamilton? I don't think so.

I am comparing to Charles. As for LH what we have been hearing very regularly these days is him talking about chosing the wrong setup while GR got it right. Coming from a 7WDC, I sometimes question if LH can contribute much to Ferrari on setup and development.

I’m loathe to get drawn into any Sainz vs Leclerc debates - really all I care about is Ferrari - but I don’t agree that Sainz has better racecraft. I think he’s a smart, thinking driver but lacks an edge in pace and is usually slower over a stint and not quite as good with measured aggression in overtakes/defence as Charles (although he’s certainly not at all bad on the offensive side, as he showed yesterday).

If I could use an analogy: Max for me is like Michael, Charles is like Hakkinen and Carlos is like Coulthard. It’s possible that Mika was a slightly better qualifier than Michael (possible not clear - same with Max/Charles) but Michael could do those quali laps throughout an entire race and with rarely an error. Mika, on the other hand, was massively fast and could fly in a fast car that he liked, but almost through away a title to Irvine due to mistakes (I feel this way about Charles - give him the right car and he could beat Max to a title but Max will almost maximise more and make fewer mistake). Coulthard had his days when he beat Mika and was a genuinely top racing driver; he wasn’t *quite* in the elite group though and it showed over time against first Mika and then Kimi.

Obviously these analogies only go so far - they’re all different people - but it’s how I see the basics of this conversation fwiw.

VER made plenty of mistakes with slow cars tho.. I'm yet to see how LEC does in a championship winning machinery. I saw a small glimpse at the beggining of 2022, and that wasn't bad at all, besides that one mistake in the wet at Imola.

If LEC continous to be mistake prone in a championship winning car, then yes, I would agree with you..

[scuderiabrandon]

What I love about this whole driver debate from this weekend is that Sainz beat Leclerc who nursed a brake issue from lap 2 to lap 57. Now give SAI his props, other than the bad start the rest of his race was flawless given what we expect from him... BUT LEC still finished P4, stop acting like he fell out of the points.

Still finished ahead of Russell who to be fair nursed his own issues and neither Mclaren made any inroads on him with issueless races. That bodes extremely well for a "healthy leclerc" and the pace of the SF-24.

Even if we assume Leclerc averaged the same pace without them brake problems, he still finishes ahead of BOTH Sainz & Perez by way of keeping track position. And I think assuming he'd be on the same pace as those two is BY FAR the most fair assumption anyone can make.

NOW let's focus on Jeddah where I presonally believe the car will be in a better much better window. In fact for the next 3-5 races I see, with the "data" we have from Bahrain, the car being in a good window. By then I think they would've sort out some of the low speed woes. If not it needs fixing before Imola. But by then we'll be 2 upgrades deep so who know what the balance will be like.

[CHT]

I am comparing to Charles. As for LH what we have been hearing very regularly these days is him talking about chosing the wrong setup while GR got it right. Coming from a 7WDC, I sometimes question if LH can contribute much to Ferrari on setup and development.

I’m loathe to get drawn into any Sainz vs Leclerc debates - really all I care about is Ferrari - but I don’t agree that Sainz has better racecraft. I think he’s a smart, thinking driver but lacks an edge in pace and is usually slower over a stint and not quite as good with measured aggression in overtakes/defence as Charles (although he’s certainly not at all bad on the offensive side, as he showed yesterday).

If I could use an analogy: Max for me is like Michael, Charles is like Hakkinen and Carlos is like Coulthard. It’s possible that Mika was a slightly better qualifier than Michael (possible not clear - same with Max/Charles) but Michael could do those quali laps throughout an entire race and with rarely an error. Mika, on the other hand, was massively fast and could fly in a fast car that he liked, but almost through away a title to Irvine due to mistakes (I feel this way about Charles - give him the right car and he could beat Max to a title but Max will almost maximise more and make fewer mistake). Coulthard had his days when he beat Mika and was a genuinely top racing driver; he wasn’t *quite* in the elite group though and it showed over time against first Mika and then Kimi.

Obviously these analogies only go so far - they’re all different people - but it’s how I see the basics of this conversation fwiw.

VER made plenty of mistakes with slow cars tho.. I'm yet to see how LEC does in a championship winning machinery. I saw a small glimpse at the beggining of 2022, and that wasn't bad at all, besides that one mistake in the wet at Imola.

If LEC continous to be mistake prone in a championship winning car, then yes, I would agree with you..

I am not here to compare Charles Vs Sainz, just highlighting a potential problem Vasseur may have in 2025 if Sainz has a great year in 2024 while LH can't live up to all the hype and expectations in 2025. I think Sainz as a driver has improved a lot while driving for Ferrari and he is still improving.

The LH / Ferrari package does look great on paper, but I think the timing may be 1 year too late. 2025 is the penultimate year for current technical regulation and both Ferrari and LH will likely have to spend a fair bit of time in 2025 on media, commercial, and sponsor engagement, and also allocating a fair bit of time for engineers and LH to learn and adjust to each other while focusing on their 2026 campaign.

LH has been driving "LH's spec" car in Merc for over a decade, hence it's likely he may face some difficulties adjusting to Charles's spec Ferrari although some may say they both have similar driving styles. For this reason, LH could turn out to be a distraction since he will likely request to have a 2026 car designed to be closer to Merc and his preference. Ferrari will then face a dilemma to decide if they should adopt LH's input or focus on Ferrari's DNA and concept.

2025 is an important year for Ferrari, if Vasseur can't turn things around in 2026, the axe will certainly fall on him.

As for LH, driving for Ferrari will put him under tremendous pressure to deliver, and I fear that if RB20's zeropod design upgrade turns out to be a winner, LH's confidence will be rattled and he may end up retiring earlier than expected.

[Seanspeed]

VER made plenty of mistakes with slow cars tho.. I'm yet to see how LEC does in a championship winning machinery. I saw a small glimpse at the beggining of 2022, and that wasn't bad at all, besides that one mistake in the wet at Imola.

If LEC continous to be mistake prone in a championship winning car, then yes, I would agree with you..

Not just slow cars, Verstappen had to resort to desperation tactics even in 2021 when his car was only *ever* so slightly behind the Mercedes in competitiveness. It's so much easier to drive cleanly and confidently when things are in your control and you dont need to push things extra hard to try and make up the difference.

And that's no dig on Max, I honestly think Max might be one of the best talents the sport has ever seen, but I think it does show the situation matters hugely when it comes to judging mistakes and whatnot.