Christian Horner under Investigation

[myurr]

In your words, you claim that Honer as boss forced his co-worker into an affair, I am just asking how sure are you that they have a sexual relationship.

And what is your motive in spreading falsehood on Horner if you are unsure?

I didn't claim Horner forced her into a sexual affair. I said that any consensual affair was irrelevant to the discussion as it is clear from the messages that the victim either never gave consent or withdrew her consent.

I'll try asking explicitly again. Do you think it's okay to unsolicitedly repeatedly ask someone for pictures, to attempt to video call them at all hours, to try and call them to get them to listen to you masturbate, to try and control who they spend time with at work because you are jealous, to call round their hotel room, to ask them what they're wearing underneath their pyjamas, to tell them that the way out from enduring your behaviour is to leave their job?

[myurr]

Yeah well we see what problems it formed now. Redbull should have tried to handle this internally all along. Why release statements about the investigation in the first place? I'm sure other teams have had similar incidents but, like organisations under a public microscope, they chose to deal with it internally. Ford and F1 want a resolution now...all this seems unnecessary.

It really seems you want to play down the scale of Horner's alleged transgression, and the role Red Bull GmbH have played in trying to cover it up - if the leaks are accurate.

No one should have to go through what the victim appears to have gone through in the workplace, and if other team principals have done similar then they need to be investigated and face justice. Any team that covers up such abhorrent behaviour deserves all the scrutiny and criticism they get. Sponsors that continue to work with a team that covers for and accepts such behaviour deserve the scrutiny and criticism they get.

People aren't property and putting up with a lecherous sexual predator of a boss shouldn't be a condition of employment.

[ScottB]

I think the main thing here is that even if CH did send these messages or pictures or whatever it may be. Affairs happen everyday...especially in a working environment. This is a pure attempt at character assassination. F1, Ford and Redbull are being pushed into a corner in a world that is very sensitive when it comes to coercive behaviour in the work place. The affair may not be the main issue here. I think the means to which CH achieved said affair needs to be judged...did he threaten this person? Did he make a subtle remark about her position in the company when she tried to stop it? If the answer is Yes to any of these questions...then CH should be taking a walk. If the entire affair was consensual from both sides...then it's a workplace matter and all Redbull have done is air out dirty laundry...

Affairs happen every day, as do regular relationships growing out of a work environment. There is nothing wrong with that (well, except for the private implications in the former, but that is not a professional matter), if the parties involved have no hierarchical professional relationship. However, when engaging in romantic acts with a subordinate, there áre professional aspects at play, which do form a problem. Hence, no affairs/relationships with subordinates, and as team principal, that basically means anyone in the team (except perhaps with Helmut, if they so desire).

Yeah well we see what problems it formed now. Redbull should have tried to handle this internally all along. Why release statements about the investigation in the first place? I'm sure other teams have had similar incidents but, like organisations under a public microscope, they chose to deal with it internally. Ford and F1 want a resolution now...all this seems unnecessary.

Given all this keeps coming out via the Dutch press (which makes it funny how many folk on Twitter are determined that it's the British media out to get him for some reason), including that the original investigation was happening, I'd suspect it doesn't take too big a jump to guess who the leaks are coming from and based on recent statements, why they're doing it. Not to say that Horner's conduct didn't deserve investigation, as it did, but I think others have seized upon it as a latest step in what seems to be a bit of a civil war at Red Bull.

If we read between the lines of what's being hinted at by various journos, does seem like Horner has tried to position himself as King of what are essentially a couple billion quids worth of assets, with RBR, RBPT and now RB. Possible fall outs / conflict with Marko, the Verstappens and the Austrians, but currently being backed by the Thai's, for now.

I’d say Dieter was a racer first and foremost, he wanted to be in F1 and wanted to win, so was cool with whatever achieved that. Red Bull the company will want the marketing first and foremost, and will see this guy both acting like he owns some very pricey assets, spending a whole pile of money and being an increasingly public face for their brand. You can see what the Austrian’s (alleged) thinking was; sell a stake to Porsche and it’s the same marketing return for less hassle and cost, instead they now have to build their own engines and are stuck with a second team even Horner seems to be struggling to justify or find a purpose for.

I reckon Horner out, VCARB will get sold, maybe with a cover of the sport asking for it, then the potential that somebody else takes a stake in RBR, but with a very long term title naming deal in place, whether that ends up being Ford, or if they’re looking for an excuse to drop out, back to Porsche, or even a Middle Eastern investment fund etc.

[Jdn1327]

Yeah well we see what problems it formed now. Redbull should have tried to handle this internally all along. Why release statements about the investigation in the first place? I'm sure other teams have had similar incidents but, like organisations under a public microscope, they chose to deal with it internally. Ford and F1 want a resolution now...all this seems unnecessary.

It really seems you want to play down the scale of Horner's alleged transgression, and the role Red Bull GmbH have played in trying to cover it up - if the leaks are accurate.

No one should have to go through what the victim appears to have gone through in the workplace, and if other team principals have done similar then they need to be investigated and face justice. Any team that covers up such abhorrent behaviour deserves all the scrutiny and criticism they get. Sponsors that continue to work with a team that covers for and accepts such behaviour deserve the scrutiny and criticism they get.

People aren't property and putting up with a lecherous sexual predator of a boss shouldn't be a condition of employment.

I'm really not saying that Redbull should have covered anything up. I'm saying that they should have done an investigation internally and then if what they found was coercion and abuse then fire CH and release a statement as to why. No sensational press coverage, no speculative stories. Yeah, they may have been leaks but it wouldn't have brought the sport into disrepute. Imagine the victim in all this as well. Her side of the story is being told via leaked screen shots. It's indignant for her.

[myurr]

I'm really not saying that Redbull should have covered anything up. I'm saying that they should have done an investigation internally and then if what they found was coercion and abuse then fire CH and release a statement as to why. No sensational press coverage, no speculative stories. Yeah, they may have been leaks but it wouldn't have brought the sport into disrepute. Imagine the victim in all this as well. Her side of the story is being told via leaked screen shots. It's indignant for her.

If the leaks are true then this is what Red Bull Racing wanted to do, but Red Bull GmbH took over and overruled them to protect Horner. Between them the Thais and Horner have created this entire mess, making life 100 times worse for the poor victim in the process whilst bring the sport into disrepute.

If the FIA were competent and headed by someone of good moral standing then they would be investigating both Horner and the coverup to ensure such behaviour is not acceptable anywhere in the sport. Unfortunately the FIA is headed by a man of questionable judgement and moral standing so instead his response has thus far been to ask Max to publicly back Horner and to say the FIA won't lift a finger without a complaint forcing their hand.

[Jdn1327]

I'm really not saying that Redbull should have covered anything up. I'm saying that they should have done an investigation internally and then if what they found was coercion and abuse then fire CH and release a statement as to why. No sensational press coverage, no speculative stories. Yeah, they may have been leaks but it wouldn't have brought the sport into disrepute. Imagine the victim in all this as well. Her side of the story is being told via leaked screen shots. It's indignant for her.

If the leaks are true then this is what Red Bull Racing wanted to do, but Red Bull GmbH took over and overruled them to protect Horner. Between them the Thais and Horner have created this entire mess, making life 100 times worse for the poor victim in the process whilst bring the sport into disrepute.

If the FIA were competent and headed by someone of good moral standing then they would be investigating both Horner and the coverup to ensure such behaviour is not acceptable anywhere in the sport. Unfortunately the FIA is headed by a man of questionable judgement and moral standing so instead his response has thus far been to ask Max to publicly back Horner and to say the FIA won't lift a finger without a complaint forcing their hand.

Couldn't agree with you more on the above.

Redbull are usually a very tight lipped outfit though. I mean when LH and MB were screaming about diversity and all that, RB never made a media statement. Now they are the most diverse team on the grid. Seems like they wanted to get ahead of the mess this all created, but in doing so they stepped right into it

[chrisc90]

There’s Jos not attending Jeddah with RB camp.

[Stu]

Yep I think once they have enough grounds they'll send him on his way. Maybe even just pay him out to avoid as much as they can.

If they have enough grounds to sack him, they will not need to pay him out; if anything they will be able to put in a damages claim against him (that could be for financial damage - if Ford ‘walk’, or for reputational/image reasons).

Don’t underestimate the latter of the two, for us F1 is a passion (all-consuming??), for almost every team owner on the grid it is either about image/marketing or image/ego.

[Jdn1327]

Yep I think once they have enough grounds they'll send him on his way. Maybe even just pay him out to avoid as much as they can.

If they have enough grounds to sack him, they will not need to pay him out; if anything they will be able to put in a damages claim against him (that could be for financial damage - if Ford ‘walk’, or for reputational/image reasons).

Don’t underestimate the latter of the two, for us F1 is a passion (all-consuming??), for almost every team owner on the grid it is either about image/marketing or image/ego.

Well passion and money...more money. Has anyone checked Redbull market share since the scandal started?

My apologies, rb aren't listed as they aren't traded. Will have to wait until financial year end to see what impact this had

[Watto]

Yep I think once they have enough grounds they'll send him on his way. Maybe even just pay him out to avoid as much as they can.

If they have enough grounds to sack him, they will not need to pay him out; if anything they will be able to put in a damages claim against him (that could be for financial damage - if Ford ‘walk’, or for reputational/image reasons).

Don’t underestimate the latter of the two, for us F1 is a passion (all-consuming??), for almost every team owner on the grid it is either about image/marketing or image/ego.

Fair point but I guess if Horner threatens legal action though and legal advice it may not be enough to sack him payout and NDA to make it all go away.

[quote=Jdn1327 post_id=<a href="tel:1195339">1195339</a> time=<a href="tel:1709547766">1709547766</a> user_id=44767]
I'm really not saying that Redbull should have covered anything up. I'm saying that they should have done an investigation internally and then if what they found was coercion and abuse then fire CH and release a statement as to why. No sensational press coverage, no speculative stories. Yeah, they may have been leaks but it wouldn't have brought the sport into disrepute. Imagine the victim in all this as well. Her side of the story is being told via leaked screen shots. It's indignant for her.

If the leaks are true then this is what Red Bull Racing wanted to do, but Red Bull GmbH took over and overruled them to protect Horner. Between them the Thais and Horner have created this entire mess, making life 100 times worse for the poor victim in the process whilst bring the sport into disrepute.

If the FIA were competent and headed by someone of good moral standing then they would be investigating both Horner and the coverup to ensure such behaviour is not acceptable anywhere in the sport. Unfortunately the FIA is headed by a man of questionable judgement and moral standing so instead his response has thus far been to ask Max to publicly back Horner and to say the FIA won't lift a finger without a complaint forcing their hand.
[/quote]

[f1jcw]

I'm really not saying that Redbull should have covered anything up. I'm saying that they should have done an investigation internally and then if what they found was coercion and abuse then fire CH and release a statement as to why. No sensational press coverage, no speculative stories. Yeah, they may have been leaks but it wouldn't have brought the sport into disrepute. Imagine the victim in all this as well. Her side of the story is being told via leaked screen shots. It's indignant for her.

If the leaks are true then this is what Red Bull Racing wanted to do, but Red Bull GmbH took over and overruled them to protect Horner. Between them the Thais and Horner have created this entire mess, making life 100 times worse for the poor victim in the process whilst bring the sport into disrepute.

If the FIA were competent and headed by someone of good moral standing then they would be investigating both Horner and the coverup to ensure such behaviour is not acceptable anywhere in the sport. Unfortunately the FIA is headed by a man of questionable judgement and moral standing so instead his response has thus far been to ask Max to publicly back Horner and to say the FIA won't lift a finger without a complaint forcing their hand.

Couldn't agree with you more on the above.

Redbull are usually a very tight lipped outfit though. I mean when LH and MB were screaming about diversity and all that, RB never made a media statement. Now they are the most diverse team on the grid. Seems like they wanted to get ahead of the mess this all created, but in doing so they stepped right into it

hang on, wait a minute, how are Redbull the most divese team on the grid
Not sure you can just make statements like that and expect it to be taken as fact.

[Watto]

IF the woman/victim at the center of all this comes forward to them i'd imagine they may have grounds but without that agree see no way it get that far. I'd perhaps question too even if RB gave them the report without her willing to be interviewed to verify without the original transcripts far even that takes them

The problem is that still won't suffice, because to bring the sport into disrepute, you have to have done something publicly. This is still a private matter, which got leaked. Neither Red Bull nor Horner is responsible for someone leaking it, unless the leak came from Red Bull itself.

For example, if it turns out Mintzlaff leaked it (as some suggests), then that could absolutely be used as an argument against Red Bull. But i doubt any action could be brought against Horner from the FIA. Horner is not responsible for his private matters leaking. By all accounts, this is still an internal Red Bull issue. The FIA is simply playing firefighters here, trying to put a damper on it.

Bringing the sport into disrepute is only half of rule 8.7. The other half is running the team in a manner compatible with the values of the sport. Covering up a serious sexual misconduct case and not giving the victim a fair complaints process, if that happened as is being reported, wouldn't be compatible with those values.

The problem facing both the FIA and sponsors like Ford is that inaction is tacit acceptance of what Red Bull / Horner are doing. As and when more details leak they absolutely will face questions of why they didn't act sooner.

Regardless you will see a complaint lodged by the teams. Toto at the very least is on record saying that it shouldn't need a complaint from the teams and that the FIA should act, but he didn't rule out making that complaint. I doubt he's going to let this one lie. He has no love for Horner, but has also been subscribed to Hamilton's efforts to bring more inclusiveness and equality to the sport. Horner's actions undermine those values. Plus it's the right thing to do.

As I’ve said though without a victim statement the FIAs hands are really tied a complaint from Toto or Lewis isn’t going to go all that far if they rock up to her door and she doesn’t co operate. They could try I’m sure but lawyers at 12 paces would shut it down pretty quick.

I don’t doubt the FIA have the power to act if they find a coverup or whatever just without her cooperation it’s going to be a very very tall ask, without being able to verify the conversation as authentic via metadata/exif data - which has been stripped from the leaked images no lawyer worth their paycheque would touch them

[myurr]

Couldn't agree with you more on the above.

Redbull are usually a very tight lipped outfit though. I mean when LH and MB were screaming about diversity and all that, RB never made a media statement. Now they are the most diverse team on the grid. Seems like they wanted to get ahead of the mess this all created, but in doing so they stepped right into it

hang on, wait a minute, how are Redbull the most divese team on the grid
Not sure you can just make statements like that and expect it to be taken as fact.

I'm not sure what being diverse has to do with normalising sexual abuse in the workplace either.

[myurr]

As I’ve said though without a victim statement the FIAs hands are really tied a complaint from Toto or Lewis isn’t going to go all that far if they rock up to her door and she doesn’t co operate. They could try I’m sure but lawyers at 12 paces would shut it down pretty quick.

I don’t doubt the FIA have the power to act if they find a coverup or whatever just without her cooperation it’s going to be a very very tall ask, without being able to verify the conversation as authentic via metadata/exif data - which has been stripped from the leaked images no lawyer worth their paycheque would touch them

They don't need a victim statement or her cooperation, although you would hope she would give it.

Here is an article giving you some more detail on the power the FIA have: https://www.si.com/fannation/racing/f1b ... gation-sj4

EXIF data is easy to manipulate and fake. That would be unlikely to be taken into account unless there was an anomaly that suggested it wasn't genuine.

[Mandrake]

I believe the way Horner is handling this is the right way. Regardless of what he says or does, it will never satisfy anyone. So best to just let it be handled by lawyers who must have seen the real things and can decide on whether this is something to be punished or not.

If this was a crime or abuse of power, then it should not stand a chance in a court case. If this is legally fine then one can think whatever they want about Horner but doesn't deserve this attention. I have friends doing the same thing (dating inside a company, in the line hierarchy [at first it's always fine for both sides]/ friends cheating on their partners) yet this should not be of public interest.

There’s Jos not attending Jeddah with RB camp.

His own decision or thrown out by RBR?