Christian Horner under Investigation

[f1jcw]

We still don't know what he did!! That's the thing.

If the Whatsapp messages are real, there is enough evidence of him being a "creepy boss" and perhaps a pervert, but not much more than that. Women actually encouter such behaviour quite regularly, life not exactly ruined. We need more transparency to see if this was something persistent, manipulative and burdensome. I am not absolving him of wrong-doing, just saying that the victim could have seen an opening and taken full advantage as well.

On the other side, he could have went much further than asking for photos and cocopuffs! lol It's a slam dunk now if there are photos of him putting his hands in places, and going out with this girl... And even then what if it was consensual? A lot of these things need to be ironed out.

Did you read through all the messages? They span several grand prix weekends, so this was over an extended period of time.

It appears to need repeating - the problem isn't if it was consensual at some point, the problem is she categorically withdrew that consent by asking him to stop and he did not. There was even a message alluding to the fact that he'd offered her a way out, but she says she doesn't want to leave her job.

He then avoided her, booking separate flights, different hotels, stopping her from doing her job. She flags that she cannot act as his travelling PA if they are in separate locations but asks him not to persist with his past behaviour. So they start working together again and he reverts back to being a sex pest and asking her to send him pictures again.

It is categorically against employment law to make putting up with sexual advances a condition for staying in your job. If it's not against Red Bull's policies then they would be highly deficient.

What part of that behaviour do you think can reasonably be explained as acceptable? Therefore Red Bull have questions to answer as to why they dismissed the victim's grievance. If you don't think that such behaviour can ruin lives I suggest you find a way of speaking to some of the victims, as it is absolutely harrowing to hear first hand how it can make people feel.

There is reports that in October she brokedown in tears at a race event and had to be consoled, this is where it all started to come out

[f1jcw]

People should ideally put a disclaimer that they are basing their view point on material that is unsubstantiated. Until there is forensic verification, that material would be as true as it's false. Using such a material to regard someone as guilty is seriously naive take on someone's situation who might be as innocent as he is being charged as guilty. Don't ask if I have read those messages as I am not into fiction.

This is the problem.
You think the actions of abuse in the work place is wrong, but you want Horner to be innocent, so the only way to achieve this is to proclain the Texts are works of fiction, without no evidence that they are, as this is the only way you can reconcile your opposing views.

[myurr]

Maybe it was some kinky fantasy of Geri teasing her husband and test him ? Maybe maybe.
None but absolutely none of the media outlets have certified these messages so lets stick to the simple facts

That's the most bizarre explanation I've heard thus far!

The simple facts are that the evidence as leaked creates a case for Horner and Red Bull to answer. They can't be allowed to brush it aside and ignore it. I've not once directly called for Horner to go without due process, but it appears that process needs to be forced through public criticism and opposition to the values and actions being displayed by Horner and Red Bull GmbH.

If a truly independent and trustworthy investigation exonerates Horner and offers up explanation for either the evidence being fake or for their being reasonable explanation for the messages (such as heavily edited context that changes the meaning of the messages) then I'll happily accept those findings. Whilst rich and powerful men appear to try and cover up abusive behaviour then I'll continue to speak out against it.

[myurr]

There is reports that in October she brokedown in tears at a race event and had to be consoled, this is where it all started to come out

From memory there are references back to Miami in the texts, there are several other messages that reference June, and she alludes to a tough time over Christmas. So that's covering at least a 7 month period.

[maxxer]

Maybe it was some kinky fantasy of Geri teasing her husband and test him ? Maybe maybe.
None but absolutely none of the media outlets have certified these messages so lets stick to the simple facts

That's the most bizarre explanation I've heard thus far!

The simple facts are that the evidence as leaked creates a case for Horner and Red Bull to answer. They can't be allowed to brush it aside and ignore it. I've not once directly called for Horner to go without due process, but it appears that process needs to be forced through public criticism and opposition to the values and actions being displayed by Horner and Red Bull GmbH.

If a truly independent and trustworthy investigation exonerates Horner and offers up explanation for either the evidence being fake or for their being reasonable explanation for the messages (such as heavily edited context that changes the meaning of the messages) then I'll happily accept those findings. Whilst rich and powerful men appear to try and cover up abusive behaviour then I'll continue to speak out against it.

That is nonsense and it has nothing to do with being rich or powerfull.
No one knows what was investigated and not know any details of that report.

[Watto]

Maybe it was some kinky fantasy of Geri teasing her husband and test him ? Maybe maybe.
None but absolutely none of the media outlets have certified these messages so lets stick to the simple facts

That's the most bizarre explanation I've heard thus far!

The simple facts are that the evidence as leaked creates a case for Horner and Red Bull to answer. They can't be allowed to brush it aside and ignore it. I've not once directly called for Horner to go without due process, but it appears that process needs to be forced through public criticism and opposition to the values and actions being displayed by Horner and Red Bull GmbH.

If a truly independent and trustworthy investigation exonerates Horner and offers up explanation for either the evidence being fake or for their being reasonable explanation for the messages (such as heavily edited context that changes the meaning of the messages) then I'll happily accept those findings. Whilst rich and powerful men appear to try and cover up abusive behaviour then I'll continue to speak out against it.

The vast majority of the people I’ve seen think he should be sacked if the messages are verified, what most here are questioning if they can be properly authenticated. If that happens **most** I’ve seen think he’s toast. I’ve too seen cases where info was leaked that created a very one sided story, - off topic to go too far into it but one side of the investigation leaked details league charged him, the statutory body investigating ( the one truely independent) never charged him despite leaked info making them look very guilty. Plenty since though has cast doubt though not exactly meaning they weren’t in the wrong ( don’t think anyone truly knows what happened over all now either)

If the FIA can authenticate the messages the victim is probably the easiest way to do that but accept there could be other forensic tools that could help too - though suspect that maybe messy too

[myurr]

That is nonsense and it has nothing to do with being rich or powerfull.
No one knows what was investigated and not know any details of that report.

You would seriously argue that Red Bull would treat the case the same way for a junior manager abusing a subordinate as they are with Horner?

No, no one knows what was investigated or why the board took the decision to retain him. Which is why we need transparency given the seriousness of the evidence now in the public domain.

[myurr]

The vast majority of the people I’ve seen think he should be sacked if the messages are verified, what most here are questioning if they can be properly authenticated. If that happens **most** I’ve seen think he’s toast. I’ve too seen cases where info was leaked that created a very one sided story, - off topic to go too far into it but one side of the investigation leaked details league charged him, the statutory body investigating ( the one truely independent) never charged him despite leaked info making them look very guilty. Plenty since though has cast doubt though not exactly meaning they weren’t in the wrong ( don’t think anyone truly knows what happened over all now either)

If the FIA can authenticate the messages the victim is probably the easiest way to do that but accept there could be other forensic tools that could help too - though suspect that maybe messy too

There's plenty that would be happy to see the story disappear. Look at the reddit threat about Jos not attending the next race and the glee at which they point to his comeuppance for daring to publicly criticise Horner. I get it that Jos is a thoroughly despicable person with a bad history, but that doesn't make this a situation to gloat over.

So we're agreed then - the FIA need to investigate and verify the messages and ensure that justice be done, one way or the other. Now if only they could be persuaded to actually do the right thing.

[maxxer]

That is nonsense and it has nothing to do with being rich or powerfull.
No one knows what was investigated and not know any details of that report.

You would seriously argue that Red Bull would treat the case the same way for a junior manager abusing a subordinate as they are with Horner?

No, no one knows what was investigated or why the board took the decision to retain him. Which is why we need transparency given the seriousness of the evidence now in the public domain.

I am sure Red Bull would treat all the same on any level. It is their responsibility to create a safe working environment.
There are more then enough cases where an asset to the company has been fired due to misconduct.

[rijtuig]

lol - than you really have no idea how it works in the big people world

[myurr]

I am sure Red Bull would treat all the same on any level. It is their responsibility to create a safe working environment.
There are more then enough cases where an asset to the company has been fired due to misconduct.

If you genuinely believe that then I have a bridge to sell you. For a start a junior manager would immediately be suspended in such a case whilst the investigation were carried out. Then you have the Motorsport Total article that claims that RB GmbH overruled RBR on the case. I doubt RB GmbH would even be informed of an investigation into a junior manager, let alone intervene.

In any case, if corporates could be trusted to self police on these matters then the tribunal system wouldn't exist. You also wouldn't have seen the #metoo movement if companies were creating safe working environments the world over.

[maxxer]

I am sure Red Bull would treat all the same on any level. It is their responsibility to create a safe working environment.
There are more then enough cases where an asset to the company has been fired due to misconduct.

If you genuinely believe that then I have a bridge to sell you. For a start a junior manager would immediately be suspended in such a case whilst the investigation were carried out. Then you have the Motorsport Total article that claims that RB GmbH overruled RBR on the case. I doubt RB GmbH would even be informed of an investigation into a junior manager, let alone intervene.

In any case, if corporates could be trusted to self police on these matters then the tribunal system wouldn't exist. You also wouldn't have seen the #metoo movement if companies were creating safe working environments the world over.

Look myurr fine by me , Christian and Adrian are screwing all of the crew whilst running 3 companies.
Go ahead believe what you believe, but bring some real prove of this.

Or just think about it.

[f1jcw]

If the FIA can authenticate the messages the victim is probably the easiest way to do that but accept there could be other forensic tools that could help too - though suspect that maybe messy too

Looking at MBS previous, I don't think there is the will there to authenitcate them, if anything the opposite.

[chrstphrln]

lol - than you really have no idea how it works in the big people world

This is considerably too undifferentiated.
Red Bull under Mateschitz was known for very high compliance standards.
The problem is, Matschitz Sr. is dead, Yoovidhya is in charge and these standards no longer have the same relevance as they did under Matschitz or Mintzlaff.
Mintzlaff had already made the decision to dismiss him and the PR releases were ready.
It was only when Horner refused to be fired that the drama began.

The whole thing should be ended as quickly as possible, Horner is no longer viable.
And Jos Verstappen is unfortunately right, if he doesn't go, everything will fall apart.

[myurr]

Look myurr fine by me , Christian and Adrian are screwing all of the crew whilst running 3 companies.
Go ahead believe what you believe, but bring some real prove of this.

Or just think about it.

Who mentioned anything about Adrian? And you've run out of arguments to justify your absurd position so resort to "just think about it"?

But I'll still bite. My evidence that Horner's case has not been handled properly is the leaked messages and this article: https://www.motorsport-total.com/formel ... r-24030303

What is your evidence that the allegations into Horner have been properly investigated and that Red Bull GmbH have dismissed the grievance based on Horner not doing anything wrong?