Christian Horner under Investigation

[TFSA]

Bringing the sport into disrepute is only half of rule 8.7. The other half is running the team in a manner compatible with the values of the sport. Covering up a serious sexual misconduct case and not giving the victim a fair complaints process, if that happened as is being reported, wouldn't be compatible with those values.

The problem facing both the FIA and sponsors like Ford is that inaction is tacit acceptance of what Red Bull / Horner are doing. As and when more details leak they absolutely will face questions of why they didn't act sooner.

Regardless you will see a complaint lodged by the teams. Toto at the very least is on record saying that it shouldn't need a complaint from the teams and that the FIA should act, but he didn't rule out making that complaint. I doubt he's going to let this one lie. He has no love for Horner, but has also been subscribed to Hamilton's efforts to bring more inclusiveness and equality to the sport. Horner's actions undermine those values. Plus it's the right thing to do.

• Red Bull not sharing private information does not constitute a "cover-up". Red Bull has a duty to protect the involved actors when investigating this.
• The FIA does still not have the power to investigate this. They cannot request access to information to which they are not privy, which includes other people's private communication. And if a proper investigation cannot be carried out, then the FIA can't act.

It's getting to the point that I'm repeating myself here, so unless something new is brought to my attention regarding this, I'll finish by standing by my above points: the reason the FIA isn't doing anything except trying to put out fires is that they can't do anything. That simple. They are not privy to the information they need to investigate this.

[CHT]

Seems like Jos was one very vocal guy calling CH to step down. I am just wondering who he is trying to impress here?

Ex wives?

https://thesportsrush.com/f1-news-reaso ... y-divorce/

In December 2008, with the couple effectively separated, Verstappen appeared in court in Tongeren, Belgium, charged with assaulting his wife, Sophie Kumpen.[35] He was found not guilty of assault, but guilty of threatening Kumpen in text messages and of violating a previously issued restraining order. He was fined and sentenced to three months probational, suspended prison sentence.[36]

On 29 November 2011, the media reported allegations that Verstappen had assaulted his ex-girlfriend; Verstappen claimed to only have had a discussion with her.[37] In January 2012, he was arrested on attempted murder charges following accusations that he drove a car into his ex-girlfriend in Roermond,[38] but released two weeks later after the charge was withdrawn.[39] Verstappen and his ex-girlfriend, Kelly van der Waal, got back together and were married in 2014. They have one daughter, Blue Jaye, born in September 2014.[40] They divorced on 2 June 2017.[41]

[Bill]

so the whole team would come apart because Horner was flirting with an employee. you guys have a penchant for exaggerating.in a normal world these shouldn't be an issue. the testosterone.
level among western man have been declining over the decades, masculine traits are lacking.

[CHT]

so the whole team would come apart because Horner was flirting with an employee. you guys have a penchant for exaggerating.in a normal world these shouldn't be an issue. the testosterone.
level among western man have been declining over the decades, masculine traits are lacking.

With thousands of f1 personals traveling around the world for races and CH is the only man who is flirting.

[chrstphrln]

so the whole team would come apart because Horner was flirting with an employee. you guys have a penchant for exaggerating.in a normal world these shouldn't be an issue. the testosterone.
level among western man have been declining over the decades, masculine traits are lacking.

Yes, that's how the Yoovidhyas see it too.
At Red Bull in Fuschl and at Ford in Dearborn you see things differently.

[myurr]

• Red Bull not sharing private information does not constitute a "cover-up". Red Bull has a duty to protect the involved actors when investigating this.
• The FIA does still not have the power to investigate this. They cannot request access to information to which they are not privy, which includes other people's private communication. And if a proper investigation cannot be carried out, then the FIA can't act.

It's getting to the point that I'm repeating myself here, so unless something new is brought to my attention regarding this, I'll finish by standing by my above points: the reason the FIA isn't doing anything except trying to put out fires is that they can't do anything. That simple. They are not privy to the information they need to investigate this.

I didn't say RB had to release the private information. The cover up I am alleging is the board of Red Bull GmbH overruling RBR in dismissing the grievance and keeping Horner in place. If the messages turn out to be true, and there is no evidence they are not, then there's a very strong case that Horner is in breach of employment law and one would imagine Red Bull's policies. If so then dismissing the grievance constitutes a cover up to protect him.

May I draw your attention to articles 12.2.1c of the International Sporting Code includes the offence of "any act prejudicial to the interests... of motorsport generally"; 12.2.1.f "Any words, deeds or writings that have caused moral injury or loss to the FIA, its bodies, its members or its executive officers, and more generally on the interest of motor sport and on the values defended by the FIA."; 12.2.1.k "Any Misconduct".

I believe those articles constitute reason for the FIA to have interest in Horner's conduct, treatment of personnel at FIA sporting events, and the conduct of Red Bull in their investigations into the grievance.

12.2.1.o sets out one possible punishment, "Failure to comply with the instructions of the FIA regarding the appointment and participation of persons during official ceremonies at any Competition counting towards a FIA Championship", allowing the FIA to bar Horner from participating in the sport.

12.2.1.g covers why Red Bull would have to comply with any investigation in full: "Any failure to cooperate in an investigation".

It's clear to me that under the ISC, which both Red Bull and Horner are signatories of, that the FIA have the power to investigate, the jurisdiction to exclude Horner, and via Article 8.7 in the Sporting Regulations the power to exclude Red Bull from the championship should they chose to do so.

[myurr]

Seems like Jos was one very vocal guy calling CH to step down. I am just wondering who he is trying to impress here?

Ex wives?

https://thesportsrush.com/f1-news-reaso ... y-divorce/

In December 2008, with the couple effectively separated, Verstappen appeared in court in Tongeren, Belgium, charged with assaulting his wife, Sophie Kumpen.[35] He was found not guilty of assault, but guilty of threatening Kumpen in text messages and of violating a previously issued restraining order. He was fined and sentenced to three months probational, suspended prison sentence.[36]

On 29 November 2011, the media reported allegations that Verstappen had assaulted his ex-girlfriend; Verstappen claimed to only have had a discussion with her.[37] In January 2012, he was arrested on attempted murder charges following accusations that he drove a car into his ex-girlfriend in Roermond,[38] but released two weeks later after the charge was withdrawn.[39] Verstappen and his ex-girlfriend, Kelly van der Waal, got back together and were married in 2014. They have one daughter, Blue Jaye, born in September 2014.[40] They divorced on 2 June 2017.[41]

Yes, Jos is a piece of ---. He's demonstrated this more times than you've quoted.

It has zero relevance to Horner's actions, and just because Jos is on the side of Horner being in the wrong it doesn't make the opposite true. You still haven't answered basic questions on why you support and defend Horner's actions and now seek to distract with this irrelevance. I sincerely hope you treat others in your life far better than you excuse Horner for, and that you're only defending him and his actions because of a blinding love for the team he runs.

[Watto]

The vast majority of the people I’ve seen think he should be sacked if the messages are verified, what most here are questioning if they can be properly authenticated. If that happens **most** I’ve seen think he’s toast. I’ve too seen cases where info was leaked that created a very one sided story, - off topic to go too far into it but one side of the investigation leaked details league charged him, the statutory body investigating ( the one truely independent) never charged him despite leaked info making them look very guilty. Plenty since though has cast doubt though not exactly meaning they weren’t in the wrong ( don’t think anyone truly knows what happened over all now either)

If the FIA can authenticate the messages the victim is probably the easiest way to do that but accept there could be other forensic tools that could help too - though suspect that maybe messy too

There's plenty that would be happy to see the story disappear. Look at the reddit threat about Jos not attending the next race and the glee at which they point to his comeuppance for daring to publicly criticise Horner. I get it that Jos is a thoroughly despicable person with a bad history, but that doesn't make this a situation to gloat over.

So we're agreed then - the FIA need to investigate and verify the messages and ensure that justice be done, one way or the other. Now if only they could be persuaded to actually do the right thing.

I am saying the FIA needs grounds to investigate right now I think everything is pretty thin, I doubt lawyers go close to anything with what we know


Jos’s comments do concern me about motive for a few reasons I do think it’s best he says nothing there are parts of his past that makes me concerned- reminds me greatly of Jelena Dokic (Former tennis player) and her father/coach/manager and the control he had over her did come out for many year

[maxxer]

Look myurr fine by me , Christian and Adrian are screwing all of the crew whilst running 3 companies.
Go ahead believe what you believe, but bring some real prove of this.

Or just think about it.

Who mentioned anything about Adrian? And you've run out of arguments to justify your absurd position so resort to "just think about it"?

But I'll still bite. My evidence that Horner's case has not been handled properly is the leaked messages and this article: https://www.motorsport-total.com/formel ... r-24030303

What is your evidence that the allegations into Horner have been properly investigated and that Red Bull GmbH have dismissed the grievance based on Horner not doing anything wrong?

My evidence is that the company dismissed whatever they had on hand.
And you go by evidence which is not proven to be true by anyone.
So unless you can prove this and not come up with some gossip magazine running for clickbait and full of adverts.

[f1jcw]

so the whole team would come apart because Horner was flirting with an employee. you guys have a penchant for exaggerating.in a normal world these shouldn't be an issue. the testosterone.
level among western man have been declining over the decades, masculine traits are lacking.

erm, a boss pressuring a female employee for nude pics against her will is a masculine trait we can very well do without thank you very much.

I am shocked this needs to be said.

[myurr]

My evidence is that the company dismissed whatever they had on hand.
And you go by evidence which is not proven to be true by anyone.
So unless you can prove this and not come up with some gossip magazine running for clickbait and full of adverts.

So your only evidence is that a corporation ruled in favour of their rich and powerful CEO. There is no proof that the corporation has acted justly, and plenty of counter examples where corporations can and do cover for actions such as Horner's and pay the fines when they later lose at tribunal.

[f1jcw]

so the whole team would come apart because Horner was flirting with an employee. you guys have a penchant for exaggerating.in a normal world these shouldn't be an issue. the testosterone.
level among western man have been declining over the decades, masculine traits are lacking.

With thousands of f1 personals traveling around the world for races and CH is the only man who is flirting.

A mechanic flirting with a mechanic, then you'd report him and fine.
The CEO the one that is making demands off you is very hard to take when it could destroy your career.

[billamend]

I'm glad someone with some sense has the patience to reply to those who are dismissing the severity of this case. Thank you, myurr!!

[myurr]

there is a block function on WhatsApp

That's a sure fire way to do well in your job as someone's PA - to block them on WhatsApp on your work phone.

[myurr]

I'm glad someone with some sense has the patience to reply to those who are dismissing the severity of this case. Thank you, myurr!!

Thank you... I'm really struggling but this is such an important issue. It's appalling the lack of basic human empathy on display.