Christian Horner under Investigation

[maxxer]

| Ford is currently checking whether the already agreed partnership with Red Bull can still be dissolved.

The bosses in Detroit are rumored to have no interest in getting involved in the drama at Red Bull.

See the private jets flying to Ingolstad already

[dans79]

This is still an internal matter, and Red Bull is entitled to make a decision. Choosing to keep Horner is not a "cover-up". Rather, it's more accurately described as a very questionable moral decision. But it's still their decision to make.

For better or worse it's a public matter now so they have to treat it as such.

[Luscion]

Reliable rumors tell of an attempt by Chris Horner to acquire the Red Bull team - with British financiers without the knowledge of the Austrians

https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... o-red-bull

[TFSA]

This is still an internal matter, and Red Bull is entitled to make a decision. Choosing to keep Horner is not a "cover-up". Rather, it's more accurately described as a very questionable moral decision. But it's still their decision to make.

For better or worse it's a public matter now so they have to treat it as such.

Yes, from a PR perspective. But I'm strictly speaking from a legal perspective, because I'm arguing with people who think the FIA should intervene and investigate.

[organic]

Reliable rumors tell of an attempt by Chris Horner to acquire the Red Bull team - with British financiers without the knowledge of the Austrians

https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... o-red-bull

This would certainly explain a big rift forming

[101FlyingDutchman]

Reliable rumors tell of an attempt by Chris Horner to acquire the Red Bull team - with British financiers without the knowledge of the Austrians

https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... o-red-bull

This would certainly explain a big rift forming

Which is pretty much exactly what I said many pages back. Power vacuum after Mateschitzs death and a shifting of the sands.

How this somehow has become linked with the current case is intriguing. The indications absolutely seems to suggest that this case is being used as collateral to push Horner out.

I genuinely feel sorry for the lady in question whom by all accounts has had a hard time and now has her case hijacked for political motives/powerplays. I’m not commenting on the whatsapps- as evidently there is a lot of unknowns so I don’t feel qualified to assess anything to do with the case in question

[codetower]

https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... o-red-bull

This would certainly explain a big rift forming

Which is pretty much exactly what I said many pages back. Power vacuum after Mateschitzs death and a shifting of the sands.

How this somehow has become linked with the current case is intriguing. The indications absolutely seems to suggest that this case is being used as collateral to push Horner out.

I sorry for the lady in question whom by all accounts has had a hard time and now has her case hijacked for political motives/powerplays. I’m not commenting on the whatsapps- as evidently there is a lot of unknowns so I don’t feel qualified to assess anything to do with the case in question

Exactly my view. For all we know, she felt strong enough to handle this on her own, and is now being used as a pawn for political motives.

I also wonder now if the Ben Sulayem investigation has anything to do with this power play as well.

[TFSA]

12.2.1g will be limited by Red Bull's compliance with the law, but for example where data protection law applies the FIA can ask for anonymised / redacted copies to protect those individuals, and for an anonymised copy of the "independent" report that Red Bull GmbH used to inform their ruling on the grievance.

Redacting evidence that only concerns two people can hardly qualify as redacting. It would be obvious who the evidence concerned.

Also, I'm not talking about data protection laws. I'm talking about simple privacy laws. In most western countries, there's laws that protects written correspondence (and spoken conversations) from being illicitly obtained, spied on or recorded by third parties. It's usually illegal to share correspondance between people, unless you are a participant of the conversation. Red Bull was handed evidence by the complainant, and as such they - and the lawyer they appointed - are privy to that evidence. They cannot share it outside of that, unless given permission.

My apologies on 1.2.1o - I did misread it. I was trying to find the rule they used to exclude Pat Simmonds and Flavio Briatore from F1 and found the wrong rule. I believe it's actually 1.3.2 that may be used. I've spent enough time scanning that document, legal speak tends to make me go cross eyed after a while. So rather than state it's definitively 1.3.2 I'll just point to the prior action of excluding Simmonds and Briatore.

Briatore challenged the exclusion in court and won. A court ruled that the exclusion was illicit. The same goes for Pat Simmonds. They were even entitled to compensation.

Red Bull are entitled to keep him, and the FIA are entitled to exclude them from the competition if they so choose. I believe Horner is also directly licensed by the FIA as a team principal and the FIA can revoke that license.

Damage to the reputation of the sport is only one angle, one which I think applies but let's agree to disagree on that one. There is also the general rule of misconduct, which breaching employment law and Red Bull policy would constitute.

And just like Briatore did, Horner can challenge that in court, and is likely to win.

The FIA does not have as much power and influence as you believe they do in this matter. This is a jurisdiction matter. The FIA isn't - and shouldn't - be interfering in employee affairs at company. They're charged with running the motorsports. That's their job.

Someone blew a private matter open (or posted faked evidence, but let's assume not). That's a big PR problem for Red Bull. But it's not a legal problem.

[dans79]

Yes, from a PR perspective. But I'm strictly speaking from a legal perspective, because I'm arguing with people who think the FIA should intervene and investigate.

If the story about ford looking to get out is true, then it's also a general business problem now.

[TFSA]

Yes, from a PR perspective. But I'm strictly speaking from a legal perspective, because I'm arguing with people who think the FIA should intervene and investigate.

If the story about for looking to get out is true, then it's also a general business problem now.

Doesn't make it a legal problem. Sometimes, life is unfair, including when you're the biggest Motorsport in the world.

[ScottB]

I would suggest that the investigation will have certainly been able to have access to the complainant's mobile, if not Horner's too. The screenshots will be a record of evidence, but will presumably have been collaborated by seeing the actual device(s).

Also, if someone wanted to orchestrate a conspiracy to frame Horner, they wouldn't be just churning out stuff via AI, there's far better ways to make fake WhatsApp screens...

Horner said he'd deleted his messages and repeatedly pushed his victim to do the same.

Doesn't mean she did, or indeed that he deleted them all in the end either.

[dans79]

Yes, from a PR perspective. But I'm strictly speaking from a legal perspective, because I'm arguing with people who think the FIA should intervene and investigate.

If the story about for looking to get out is true, then it's also a general business problem now.

Doesn't make it a legal problem. Sometimes, life is unfair, including when you're the biggest Motorsport in the world.

My point was Horner could still loose his job.

[f1jcw]

I would suggest that the investigation will have certainly been able to have access to the complainant's mobile, if not Horner's too. The screenshots will be a record of evidence, but will presumably have been collaborated by seeing the actual device(s).

Also, if someone wanted to orchestrate a conspiracy to frame Horner, they wouldn't be just churning out stuff via AI, there's far better ways to make fake WhatsApp screens...

Horner said he'd deleted his messages and repeatedly pushed his victim to do the same.

Doesn't mean she did, or indeed that he deleted them all in the end either.

I think what happened was he requested her to delete them, she screen shot them and then deleted them.
So that if he asked she could show that they was deleted.

[ScottB]

If the story about for looking to get out is true, then it's also a general business problem now.

Doesn't make it a legal problem. Sometimes, life is unfair, including when you're the biggest Motorsport in the world.

My point was Horner could still loose his job.

Indeed, he won't lose his job because Red Bull will now decide he did break the terms of his contract or the law. The purpose of the leak was to build the pressure that makes his job untenable, presumably because the initial investigation didn't do it.

Whether that original investigation should or should not have terminated Horner, we may never know, but ultimately it was within the company's own power to do so. Clearly the leaker took objection to that and has gone this route, and I would suspect, this route likely will get them the desired outcome.

[TFSA]

Doesn't make it a legal problem. Sometimes, life is unfair, including when you're the biggest Motorsport in the world.

My point was Horner could still loose his job.

...and if he does, he's likely to do so for PR reasons - not for legal reasons. As such, it has nothing to do with what I'm arguing. I'm here arguing the legal points at the moment.

If Red Bull eventually decides to fire Horner in an attempt of damage control, that's certainly a valid choice they have. But it still has nothing to do with what I'm discussing at the moment, which is the people arguing that the FIA should intervene and investigate. My point is that, legally, they can't. This is out of their hands.