Yeah it looks like Jos and Max forgot that F1 is a motorsport. Max is very replaceable in my view. Sure he might be the best driver by a large margin but he isn't winning titles in any other car till 2026.
James Allison wasn't a power struggle, he lost his wife and they didn't let him leave to grievegastonmazzacane wrote: ↑04 Mar 2024, 19:30Come to think of it, power struggle always happened in F1.
Ron Dennis - Teddy Mayer
Ron Dennis - Mansour Ojjeh
Luca di Montezemolo - Jean Todt (although it wasn't really a battle)
Matia Binotto - James Allison (allegedly)
Matia Binotto - Maurizio Arrivabene
Abiteboul - Vasseur
This are just the ones in my mind. Must be more. Now we have this. But my country has a saying: No soup is eaten as hot as it's cooked
Keep on dreaming.
Who said anything about right now? Very unlikely this involves 2024, might not even involve 2025. But we have to face facts, Horner's reputation and credibility is shot, and by extension his ability to excel at his job will be hampered. It's not just day to day operations, he is the outwards face of the team, the guy who needs to haul in sponsorships and major recruitments. Can you do that with this scandal out there? Not well I don't think. Current sponsors might already be considering their options, certainly Ford anyways. I think what Max and Newey offer is rather self-explanatory. The real question now is, what does Horner offer anymore except disruption?f1isgood wrote: ↑04 Mar 2024, 19:20Verstappen would be an idiot to leave RB now. Marko is 80+ and is not very relevant as far as I am concerned.BlueCheetah66 wrote: ↑04 Mar 2024, 19:12Theres no way 3 integral parts of Red Bull walk just to keep 1 man. Surely Horner ends up out from this
What is Adrian's role going forward? Horner has emphasized that the technical team under Pierre's leadership is very strong. Adrian, according to Horner has had limited input on the F1 side of things for a while now.
And what is in it for Marko/Newey/Max to leave right now? Also this discussion is better kept in that other thread.
Alonso + Max + Adrian Newey in Red Bull would be such a nuclear combination so out of this world that it would make the dominance of the last few years look like a joke, destroying absolutely everything that dares stand up to them... themselves included
If Ferrari fans can be dreaming for almost 2 decades for a title, Red Bull fans can atleast start!LM10 wrote: ↑04 Mar 2024, 19:39Keep on dreaming.
RedBull will not stay dominant forever. There’s a good chance they’ll not be a title contender from 2026 on and who knows, maybe it will be Ferrari’s turn to be dominant. Vasseur is on his way redesigning the team and I still think that there is more to Hamilton’s move to Ferrari than marketing/financial reasons.
RedBull is attractive as long as they’re winning. Ferrari, on the other hand, could put a red colored donkey on track and top drivers would still go there.
First of all, the facts so far are that Horner had an investigation and the investigation decided he will stay in his position as TP/CEO. Beyond that nothing is verified.Cs98 wrote: ↑04 Mar 2024, 19:39Who said anything about right now? Very unlikely this involves 2024, might not even involve 2025. But we have to face facts, Horner's reputation and credibility is shot, and by extension his ability to excel at his job will be hampered. It's not just day to day operations, he is the outwards face of the team, the guy who needs to haul in sponsorships and major recruitments. Can you do that with this scandal out there? Not well I don't think. Current sponsors might already be considering their options, certainly Ford anyways. I think what Max and Newey offer is rather self-explanatory. The real question now is, what does Horner offer anymore except disruption?f1isgood wrote: ↑04 Mar 2024, 19:20Verstappen would be an idiot to leave RB now. Marko is 80+ and is not very relevant as far as I am concerned.BlueCheetah66 wrote: ↑04 Mar 2024, 19:12
Theres no way 3 integral parts of Red Bull walk just to keep 1 man. Surely Horner ends up out from this
What is Adrian's role going forward? Horner has emphasized that the technical team under Pierre's leadership is very strong. Adrian, according to Horner has had limited input on the F1 side of things for a while now.
And what is in it for Marko/Newey/Max to leave right now? Also this discussion is better kept in that other thread.
It doesn't matter if Horner got off from the investigation, people in the paddock don't buy that s*** after the leak. And certainly many sponsors won't take that chance, current or prospective. Ford being the obvious one reported to already be looking to get out. Horner's credibility is done, and that means everything in the role he is in. It's no point thinking about "what would RB be without Horner" because the answer to that question is that whatever they become is going to be better than if he stays, he's gone from being a huge asset to a huge liability. No guarantee you can replace who he was (asset), but you can certainly rid yourself of the liability he has become.f1isgood wrote: ↑04 Mar 2024, 20:35First of all, the facts so far are that Horner had an investigation and the investigation decided he will stay in his position as TP/CEO. Beyond that nothing is verified.Cs98 wrote: ↑04 Mar 2024, 19:39Who said anything about right now? Very unlikely this involves 2024, might not even involve 2025. But we have to face facts, Horner's reputation and credibility is shot, and by extension his ability to excel at his job will be hampered. It's not just day to day operations, he is the outwards face of the team, the guy who needs to haul in sponsorships and major recruitments. Can you do that with this scandal out there? Not well I don't think. Current sponsors might already be considering their options, certainly Ford anyways. I think what Max and Newey offer is rather self-explanatory. The real question now is, what does Horner offer anymore except disruption?f1isgood wrote: ↑04 Mar 2024, 19:20
Verstappen would be an idiot to leave RB now. Marko is 80+ and is not very relevant as far as I am concerned.
What is Adrian's role going forward? Horner has emphasized that the technical team under Pierre's leadership is very strong. Adrian, according to Horner has had limited input on the F1 side of things for a while now.
And what is in it for Marko/Newey/Max to leave right now? Also this discussion is better kept in that other thread.
Yes, you are absolutely right in all the points mentioned regarding operations, sponsorships and recruitments. Since Ford made their announcement pre investigation results, no news has officially surfaced. Time will tell how it will play out, and I am happy to not jump into any conclusions.
What we also know as a fact is that an employee from the team publicly saying that Horner had full support of the team (it is now deleted). These employees are responsibly for making cars in the end.
And also, only thing I can gather from the results is that Max/Newey/Horner are very succesful as a team. There's no guarantee that RB remains as successful if one component is gone. Given that Newey and Horner won plenty before Max, I tend to think that Max is the most replaceable component given it's a motorsport after all.
Given Horner's comments about the technical team, I am inclined to believe Newey's role is less important than it once used to be. If it was not the case, I also tend to believe that Horner would have made it clear since this was all way before this current controversy. Of course losing Newey might still lead to a technical team collapse, but the same might happen if RB lose Horner from a leadership point of view.
In my view, at least going by what words have actually come from the horse's mouth, so far it is clear that for whatever reason an investigation's conclusion has allowed CH to continue as TP and there's no reason for me to believe that Newey at least wants him gone. Imo, Jos' statements and Max's silence tell more about which side they stand.
I expect an end to this saga soon anyways, with likely Horner sacked. But I also think that his sacking will probably lead to a bigger collapse than most people think. Time will tell what actually happens.
Bigger than losing Max, Newey, Marko, Ford, and an untold amount of people within the company that no longer believe in Horner as a leader? My god, if people were poaching RB employees before this it's going to be open market if Horner stays. When people say things like "he's no longer tenable", it sounds banale, but it is true! This is a rotting limb, and it needs to be cut loose before it spreads everywhere. Max, Marko and Newey understand this. My guess is they would prefer to stay at RB if Horner goes, but I do not think they are empty threats should he remain.But I also think that his sacking will probably lead to a bigger collapse than most people think. Time will tell what actually happens
If you want to stick to facts then it's false to say the investigation decided he will stay.
How he's spoken about in the paddock is something I am not aware of. If you have an inside source, I am happy to take your side. Those people know Horner personally and will be privy to far more information than I will ever get access to. I tend to believe their perception is likely to be true. And just to be clear, I am not taking what unverified media and TPs say in public. Both of these have more to gain by creating drama, so they will be opportunisitic.Cs98 wrote: ↑04 Mar 2024, 20:51It doesn't matter if Horner got off from the investigation, people in the paddock don't buy that s*** after the leak. And certainly many sponsors won't take that chance, current or prospective. Ford being the obvious one reported to already be looking to get out. Horner's credibility is done, and that means everything in the role he is in. It's no point thinking about "what would RB be without Horner" because the answer to that question is that whatever they become is going to be better than if he stays, he's gone from being a huge asset to a huge liability. No guarantee you can replace who he was (asset), but you can certainly rid yourself of the liability he has become.f1isgood wrote: ↑04 Mar 2024, 20:35First of all, the facts so far are that Horner had an investigation and the investigation decided he will stay in his position as TP/CEO. Beyond that nothing is verified.Cs98 wrote: ↑04 Mar 2024, 19:39
Who said anything about right now? Very unlikely this involves 2024, might not even involve 2025. But we have to face facts, Horner's reputation and credibility is shot, and by extension his ability to excel at his job will be hampered. It's not just day to day operations, he is the outwards face of the team, the guy who needs to haul in sponsorships and major recruitments. Can you do that with this scandal out there? Not well I don't think. Current sponsors might already be considering their options, certainly Ford anyways. I think what Max and Newey offer is rather self-explanatory. The real question now is, what does Horner offer anymore except disruption?
Yes, you are absolutely right in all the points mentioned regarding operations, sponsorships and recruitments. Since Ford made their announcement pre investigation results, no news has officially surfaced. Time will tell how it will play out, and I am happy to not jump into any conclusions.
What we also know as a fact is that an employee from the team publicly saying that Horner had full support of the team (it is now deleted). These employees are responsibly for making cars in the end.
And also, only thing I can gather from the results is that Max/Newey/Horner are very succesful as a team. There's no guarantee that RB remains as successful if one component is gone. Given that Newey and Horner won plenty before Max, I tend to think that Max is the most replaceable component given it's a motorsport after all.
Given Horner's comments about the technical team, I am inclined to believe Newey's role is less important than it once used to be. If it was not the case, I also tend to believe that Horner would have made it clear since this was all way before this current controversy. Of course losing Newey might still lead to a technical team collapse, but the same might happen if RB lose Horner from a leadership point of view.
In my view, at least going by what words have actually come from the horse's mouth, so far it is clear that for whatever reason an investigation's conclusion has allowed CH to continue as TP and there's no reason for me to believe that Newey at least wants him gone. Imo, Jos' statements and Max's silence tell more about which side they stand.
I expect an end to this saga soon anyways, with likely Horner sacked. But I also think that his sacking will probably lead to a bigger collapse than most people think. Time will tell what actually happens.
Bigger than losing Max, Newey, Marko, Ford, and an untold amount of people within the company that no longer believe in Horner as a leader? My god, if people were poaching RB employees before this it's going to be open market if Horner stays. When people say things like "he's no longer tenable", it sounds banale, but it is true! This is a rotting limb, and it needs to be cut loose before it spreads everywhere. Max, Marko and Newey understand this. My guess is they would prefer to stay at RB if Horner goes, but I do not think they are empty threats should he remain.But I also think that his sacking will probably lead to a bigger collapse than most people think. Time will tell what actually happens
f1isgood wrote: ↑04 Mar 2024, 21:15How he's spoken about in the paddock is something I am not aware of. If you have an inside source, I am happy to take your side. Those people know Horner personally and will be privy to far more information than I will ever get access to. I tend to believe their perception is likely to be true. And just to be clear, I am not taking what unverified media and TPs say in public. Both of these have more to gain by creating drama, so they will be opportunisitic.Cs98 wrote: ↑04 Mar 2024, 20:51It doesn't matter if Horner got off from the investigation, people in the paddock don't buy that s*** after the leak. And certainly many sponsors won't take that chance, current or prospective. Ford being the obvious one reported to already be looking to get out. Horner's credibility is done, and that means everything in the role he is in. It's no point thinking about "what would RB be without Horner" because the answer to that question is that whatever they become is going to be better than if he stays, he's gone from being a huge asset to a huge liability. No guarantee you can replace who he was (asset), but you can certainly rid yourself of the liability he has become.f1isgood wrote: ↑04 Mar 2024, 20:35
First of all, the facts so far are that Horner had an investigation and the investigation decided he will stay in his position as TP/CEO. Beyond that nothing is verified.
Yes, you are absolutely right in all the points mentioned regarding operations, sponsorships and recruitments. Since Ford made their announcement pre investigation results, no news has officially surfaced. Time will tell how it will play out, and I am happy to not jump into any conclusions.
What we also know as a fact is that an employee from the team publicly saying that Horner had full support of the team (it is now deleted). These employees are responsibly for making cars in the end.
And also, only thing I can gather from the results is that Max/Newey/Horner are very succesful as a team. There's no guarantee that RB remains as successful if one component is gone. Given that Newey and Horner won plenty before Max, I tend to think that Max is the most replaceable component given it's a motorsport after all.
Given Horner's comments about the technical team, I am inclined to believe Newey's role is less important than it once used to be. If it was not the case, I also tend to believe that Horner would have made it clear since this was all way before this current controversy. Of course losing Newey might still lead to a technical team collapse, but the same might happen if RB lose Horner from a leadership point of view.
In my view, at least going by what words have actually come from the horse's mouth, so far it is clear that for whatever reason an investigation's conclusion has allowed CH to continue as TP and there's no reason for me to believe that Newey at least wants him gone. Imo, Jos' statements and Max's silence tell more about which side they stand.
I expect an end to this saga soon anyways, with likely Horner sacked. But I also think that his sacking will probably lead to a bigger collapse than most people think. Time will tell what actually happens.
Bigger than losing Max, Newey, Marko, Ford, and an untold amount of people within the company that no longer believe in Horner as a leader? My god, if people were poaching RB employees before this it's going to be open market if Horner stays. When people say things like "he's no longer tenable", it sounds banale, but it is true! This is a rotting limb, and it needs to be cut loose before it spreads everywhere. Max, Marko and Newey understand this. My guess is they would prefer to stay at RB if Horner goes, but I do not think they are empty threats should he remain.But I also think that his sacking will probably lead to a bigger collapse than most people think. Time will tell what actually happens
So far, in terms of verified credible news, he isn't being seen as a rotting limb at least within the factory. Once again happy to be corrected, once we get proper news.
Employees are always going to move from one team to another, especially from a successful team to another. Horner or not, not everyone forever is happy to be in the shadow of a leader, and will inevitably move.
I have given my reasons for why losing Max/Marko aren't as big of an issue. Marko isn't running RBR. Marko's last driver choice on the recommendation of Max turned out very poorly, and Max I am sorry, isn't as important as the technical side of things and the actual team that makes the car. Adrian I understand but there's no credible source reporting on that.
I will stop with this discussion here for now. It's getting quite tedious. We have both made our points. Time will tell what is the actual reality, and certainly I might know far less than you.
Those people would be Helmut Marko, Adrian Newey and Max Verstappen, who are threatening to exit per reports. Three biggest names in the team after Horner threatening to go, wanna bet they are not the only ones? You can try to wave this off and stand on RB press releases about everything being fine, it's clearly not. Horner may have held a rally at the factory last week, but that was before the leak. Now everyone knows what this is about and they can make up their own mind, and safe to say it doesn't look that great when Horner won't deny the contents of said leak. Horner is a liability now, Max, Newey and Marko are not.Those people know Horner personally and will be privy to far more information than I will ever get access to. I tend to believe their perception is likely to be true
