Christian Horner under Investigation

[f1jcw]

Not sure if this has been brought up by anyone before but what are the legal ramifications for anyone found "guilty" in whatever Mr. Horner is being accused of? Because if like for example in some countries it's disciplinary action on employers discretion than wouldn't this whole thing be blowing it out of proportion?

Mostly at the companies discretion.
Though most don’t want to be associated with a CEO who requests pictures of his employees to perve over when they say no when they say no and change their job roles as punishment for it.
In most people it kind of leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

[myurr]

Not sure if this has been brought up by anyone before but what are the legal ramifications for anyone found "guilty" in whatever Mr. Horner is being accused of? Because if like for example in some countries it's disciplinary action on employers discretion than wouldn't this whole thing be blowing it out of proportion?

Usually the business has to ensure that it doesn't happen again, that all employees enjoy a safe working environment free from sexual harassment, and that the victim is appropriately compensated for any financial loss (loss of earnings, loss of potential earnings if they cannot continue work, etc.), any emotional distress, stress, and so on. If it goes as far as ACAS mediation or the civil courts then there's technically no upper limit on the compensation that can be awarded.

There's no criminal offence for sexual harassment. If someone went further to sexual assault then the police and CPS would get involved in a criminal case. I don't think there's any suggestion of that in this case, and certainly the leaked text messages only indicate sexual harassment.

[Watto]

yes okay. But, why would we think they are legitimate, if we can't explain why they're screenshots?

May be the way she knows how to do things. May not be aware of the export option.

well we're dealing with what's likely aren't we, as we don't know much so we're amusing ourselves trying to put bits of evidence together. It's not a case of "prove it's impossible".

This is a very capable professional communicator, who uses WhatsApp fluently. She could have simply shown the chats on her phone to HR, the police, the barrister, or the Daily Mail. She could have Exported them from the menu in the program, clicking on the 3 dots that she 99% surely knows about like everyone under 80.

But instead, someone emailed 100 screenshots that included some coercive text. Screenshots that, unlike anything in WhatsApp itself, can be faked. Most of the screenshots are completely innocent, so why were they included?

Then we have the KC barrister and Head Office looking at the screenshots, her phone probably, and Christian's phone probably, and dismissing the complaint. But if she has been coerced, then she has her WhatsApp evidence, all securely encrypted and ready to show to anybody who's interested. So it'd pretty suicidal for the KC and GMBH to get caught so easily, getting someone off sexual abuse. So we can speculate she deleted it without it being backed up, but that's really trying isn't it, I mean why? When she made a complaint about it.

I don’t really find all that much factual in all this really.

I don’t think you can really read one way or the other into screenshots are the method you’d use if you wanted to fake them; both the text file and images can be easily enough falsified.

Nor do we really know what Thea’s KC report claimed, it may have questioned the authenticity of the messages, it may have found evidence of harassment but not strong grounds for dismissal. Or found them the Thai owner pulled rank either hoping they could buy their way out not exactly unheard of in these situations.

As for going to police, daily mail and so on. Well she did eventually take it to HR; as to why not right away who knows maybe she was reluctant as to wasn’t confident that RBR HR would deal with it properly, gets back to Horner fear for your job, why not take it further maybe it’s what her lawyer is advising use all internal opportunities to resolve this matter looks far stronger than going straight to an arbiter you showed you tried to resolve the issue internally that failed.

I’m highly suspicious of this who case trial by media by leaks etc but without more evidence I’m not so sure it’s fair to make strong judgments one way or the other here without knowing all that went on

[CHT]

Another RBR 1-2, and Marko will remain in RBR alongside CH.

With Perez back in form, RBR will be untouchable

[Watto]

The screenshots say he deleted the messages. You've fallen for them, that's the power of images.

My argument is that the screenshots can be faked but not as easily as text, so they're more convincing, as images, and unlike the original chats which can't be faked.

That doesn't make any sense at all. If it had been a text file that had leaked you'd be arguing that text files are easy to fake and you want screenshots as proof.

It is called grasping. People still can't accept that the screen shots are real even though redbull and horner has not said a peep against them.

This is one of the reasons I lean towards them being real as well as the email list seemed way too calculated etc.

But it’s also not the be all and end all without knowing all the details on what’s happened as I have a quick look at UK harassment laws/guidelines spreading false/malicious rumours falls under it. In which case his lawyers may simply say avoid public comment on this otherwise you make future action harder, you’re only likely giving her lawyers more room to argue.

Likewise the same reason if she was harassed she would be advised the same don’t give lawyers any reason to argue and attack any weak point they see.

Is this what happened? IMO no but the ‘he didn’t deny them therefore….’ Becomes a very dangerous way of thinking. It’s about as bad as the KC cleared him he’s safe without knowing what his advice /report was what , what evidence he saw etc it’s a pretty foolish way of thinking from all sides for mine to have strong views either way pick and choose what fits you can almost always find evidence to back you up especially something so public.

[TeamKoolGreen]

Another RBR 1-2, and Marko will remain in RBR alongside CH.

With Perez back in form, RBR will be untouchable

Perez is always strong in these first few races. Then he falls off a cliff after the European races start.

[CHT]

Another RBR 1-2, and Marko will remain in RBR alongside CH.

With Perez back in form, RBR will be untouchable

Perez is always strong in these first few races. Then he falls off a cliff after the European races start.

Perez has stopped dreaming about WDC along side Max which will help him to be more focus.

I reckon RBR is enroute to become champion and that should make RB owners happy

[langedweil]

The screenshots say he deleted the messages. You've fallen for them, that's the power of images.

My argument is that the screenshots can be faked but not as easily as text, so they're more convincing, as images, and unlike the original chats which can't be faked.

That doesn't make any sense at all. If it had been a text file that had leaked you'd be arguing that text files are easy to fake and you want screenshots as proof.

It is called grasping. People still can't accept that the screen shots are real even though redbull and horner has not said a peep against them.

Mate .. 120 pages of walking around with your guillotine has made your point pretty clear.
We get it, we do. And I even respect it ..
But stating something is real because the involved did not publicly respond against it is .. well, a bit silly.

Can we keep this thread a bit more informative instead of an endless stream of the same colliding opinions ?
I'm not trying to be an arse at all, but it's kinda tiring.

[TeamKoolGreen]

Another RBR 1-2, and Marko will remain in RBR alongside CH.

With Perez back in form, RBR will be untouchable

Perez is always strong in these first few races. Then he falls off a cliff after the European races start.

Perez has stopped dreaming about WDC along side Max which will help him to be more focus.

I reckon RBR is enroute to become champion and that should make RB owners happy

Im an Red Bull fan. But i find this whole thing disappointing. Maybe Marko and Horner will sign a peace treaty and carry on. After they both tried to throw each other overboard.

The main issue about the direction and ownership of the team might be put on hold. Christian Horner doesn't want to to be operating under some clueless big-shot like an Austrian version of John Elkann. I hope he eventually gets the coup done.

[GrizzleBoy]

So if its true she was paid off, doesnt that mean the independent investigation didn't end due to the findings of the investigation, but because a settlement was reached outside of the investigation?

Otherwise why pay out a million to someone who an independent investigation found to be incorrect in their accusations?

[CHT]

So if its true she was paid off, doesnt that mean the independent investigation didn't end due to the findings of the investigation, but because a settlement was reached outside of the investigation?

Otherwise why pay out a million to someone who an independent investigation found to be incorrect in their accusations?

Perhaps its not true then

[Avtandil]

Not sure if this has been brought up by anyone before but what are the legal ramifications for anyone found "guilty" in whatever Mr. Horner is being accused of? Because if like for example in some countries it's disciplinary action on employers discretion than wouldn't this whole thing be blowing it out of proportion?

Mostly at the companies discretion.
Though most don’t want to be associated with a CEO who requests pictures of his employees to perve over when they say no when they say no and change their job roles as punishment for it.
In most people it kind of leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

I see. Thanks for clearing that up. Must be a PR nightmare for Red Bull in some of the more developed countries they operate in.

[Avtandil]

Not sure if this has been brought up by anyone before but what are the legal ramifications for anyone found "guilty" in whatever Mr. Horner is being accused of? Because if like for example in some countries it's disciplinary action on employers discretion than wouldn't this whole thing be blowing it out of proportion?

Usually the business has to ensure that it doesn't happen again, that all employees enjoy a safe working environment free from sexual harassment, and that the victim is appropriately compensated for any financial loss (loss of earnings, loss of potential earnings if they cannot continue work, etc.), any emotional distress, stress, and so on. If it goes as far as ACAS mediation or the civil courts then there's technically no upper limit on the compensation that can be awarded.

There's no criminal offence for sexual harassment. If someone went further to sexual assault then the police and CPS would get involved in a criminal case. I don't think there's any suggestion of that in this case, and certainly the leaked text messages only indicate sexual harassment.

Super! thanks this is very much what I was interested in. Ff there doesn't seem to be a "criminal" case against him, while appalling and in some ways inexcusable behaviour, the amount of energy and time the media and some of the fans have been pouring into this essentially a private matter, comes of a tad crazy.

[Wouter]

That doesn't make any sense at all. If it had been a text file that had leaked you'd be arguing that text files are easy to fake and you want screenshots as proof.

.
It is called grasping. People still can't accept that the screen shots are real even though redbull and horner has not said a peep against them.

.
Mate .. 120 pages of walking around with your guillotine has made your point pretty clear.
We get it, we do. And I even respect it ..
But stating something is real because the involved did not publicly respond against it is .. well, a bit silly.

Can we keep this thread a bit more informative instead of an endless stream of the same colliding opinions ?
I'm not trying to be an arse at all, but it's kinda tiring.

.

[myurr]

Super! thanks this is very much what I was interested in. Ff there doesn't seem to be a "criminal" case against him, while appalling and in some ways inexcusable behaviour, the amount of energy and time the media and some of the fans have been pouring into this essentially a private matter, comes of a tad crazy.

Just because there's no criminal case doesn't mean it's not a serious issue. Horner, as employer and manager, has a duty of care to those under his wing, both morally and legally. He, and Red Bull, have a legal responsibility to take all reasonable steps to provide a safe working environment free from harassment.

If the leaked messages are true, which they almost certainly are, then it appears Horner has breached that legal and moral duty. The victim asked him to stop his behaviour on numerous occasions but Horner persisted. He repeatedly asked her what she was wearing, including what she was wearing underneath her pyjamas, asked her for pictures, tried to video call her at all times, tried to video call her when she said she was in the shower, tried to call her so she could listen to him masturbate, told her of a time when he masturbated whilst thinking of her, tried to control who she spent time with at work because he got jealous, made a habit of calling round her hotel room to ask what she was up to, etc. The worst for me, from a legal point of view, was telling her that he'd offered her a way out from his behaviour and she replied that she didn't want to leave her job. This unfolded over a period of many months.

That's the behaviour we know about. We have no idea what he was like in person with her, whether he was forever flirting, touching, making inappropriate comments, despite being requested not to. There are a couple of hints in the texts to him being inappropriate in person but nothing definitive.

I think people tend to underestimate how devastating this type of behaviour can be. There are reports of the lady breaking down crying at a grand prix in October, and she speaks to Horner of how she's been going through a tough time in her messages. I've seen first hand on several occasions the emotional devastation this kind of behaviour can bring, with one example of a friend of a friend taking her life to get away from it. Just because it's a civil offence instead of a criminal one it doesn't mean it's not serious nor in the public interest to know about it. Horner represents a sporting team that commands support from millions of people across the world. If it's a terrible place to work (if you're a pretty young lady working around certain individuals) then people should know that - the people who aspire to work there, the people who spend millions upon millions on merchandise, the people who passionately support the team, the sponsors who associate themselves with that brand, the other teams and FIA whose own brands can be damaged by the fallout, etc.