FOTA agrees to drop KERS from 2010

[xpensive]

30% xtra power without any additional fuel? That would be impressive indeed.

Also, as I can recall, the 1.5 F1 turbos of the 80s, were serious gas-guzzlers?

[flynfrog]

they also made insane power too.

[safeaschuck]

So there are many ways to scavenge power, KERS is a good example. I understand the priciples if not the detail of many of these alternatives but I have noticed a tendancy in recent posts to state power gains as if the equipment in question was tested in a static environment. Any gains to fuel efficiency mode on a static test must be weighed against the losses from dragging the extra hardware along for the ride. In the case of large aircraft this is probably only a small hinderance but the fact that it has been achieved in F1, with direction and speed changes coming rapidly and often and despite limitations on power storage which seem, at first glance to restrict the system to such as a degree as to make it loss making at best, and yet the goal has been acheived in half a season.

So the regulation to keep KERS is included in the new concorde agreement? it is safe till 2012? if this is the case I'm sure it will acquit itself to the point where it's value will never be argued.

[pipex]

Sorry for being dim, but why use the flywheel as a storage device via electrical power instead of mechanical power? Is it possible for a clever mechanical coupling from fly wheel to crankshaft?

Other advantages to add to the ones mentioned by xpensive could be ease of control, faster dynamics, weight, compactness, and overall efficiency. Not to mention the great things you can do with software, instead of modifying the complete initial hardware design.

[xpensive]

For Giblet & flynfrog;

I actually believe that the definition of KERS, Kinetic Energy Recovery System, is to recover the kinetic energy of the vehicle, otherwise lost as thermal-energy during breaking.

In all honesty, I cannot see recovering exhaust-energy, in any which way, falling inside that category?

[Giblet]

For Giblet & flynfrog;

I actually believe that the definition of KERS, Kinetic Energy Recovery System, is to recover the kinetic energy of the vehicle, otherwise lost as thermal-energy during breaking.

In all honesty, I cannot see recovering exhaust-energy, in any which way, falling inside that category?

If KERS system, that recovered energy during braking, also recovered energy form the exhaust, it would still be a KERS system, especially with the flywheel.

If the Flywheel Hybrid can be considered a kinetic energy storage device, and it gets it's kinetic energy from the kinetic energy in the exhaust, it's still recovering wasted kinetic energy from the car.

Putting up a windmill to turn a stone is the same thing that an exhaust impeller does. Exhaust energy is kinetic.

[Scotracer]

For Giblet & flynfrog;

I actually believe that the definition of KERS, Kinetic Energy Recovery System, is to recover the kinetic energy of the vehicle, otherwise lost as thermal-energy during breaking.

In all honesty, I cannot see recovering exhaust-energy, in any which way, falling inside that category?

If KERS system, that recovered energy during braking, also recovered energy form the exhaust, it would still be a KERS system, especially with the flywheel.

If the Flywheel Hybrid can be considered a kinetic energy storage device, and it gets it's kinetic energy from the kinetic energy in the exhaust, it's still recovering wasted kinetic energy from the car.

Putting up a windmill to turn a stone is the same thing that an exhaust impeller does. Exhaust energy is kinetic.

Exhaust energy recapture is in the form of heat energy, not a turbine in the exhaust system. A Turbine would restrict the performance of the engine...and how would it differentiate between acceleration and braking?

Kinetic Energy is generally defined as forward (or lateral) motion of the vehicle. It's not the form at which the energy is stored which defines it as kinetic (otherwise the current KERS systems in F1 wouldn't be KERS).

Anything recovered from the exhaust will be HERS - Heat Energy Recovery System.

[Giblet]

So only hot air spins a turbine? You say not a turbine, however I am talking specifically about a turbine.

it doesn't have to differentiate, as when it doesn't spin, the KERS device/battery gets no energy. no harm no foul.

Maybe the KERS flywheel type system could be coupled directly to a turbine, much like a compressor is attached in a turbo's turbine. If it was linked 50/50 to the driveline to capture the vehicles forward motion, what would it be? HKERS?

Take the heat away, for example, while engine braking, and the motor is just pumping ambient air, the turbine still spins. If a tank of water was there, and was heated by the exhaust, and the steam drove a compressor, then yeah, HERS.

Tell me how a turbine captures and reuses heat energy, because I am missing some point you are trying to make.

I am looking at ways to supplement a currently underpowered flywheel system using tried and tested ways, like turbines, to make it a more viable, integrated system that wastes less fuel.

If a KERS device, like a flywheel, or its battery, can be charged at other times other than braking, it could make this kind of more viable for a future F1.

Sorry if this exploration of off the sidelines of todays standard KERS devices in their infancy is off topic, but I am trying to see how other forms of energy recapture could assist KERS in a near future F1 of 2012.

[Richard]

Any gains to fuel efficiency ... must be weighed against the losses from dragging the extra hardware along for the ride.

True for normal vehicles, but the F1 cars have a set minimum weight. So the lighter cars without KERS cars have to drag around another 25-30kg of ballast.

Also KERS is currently used as a power boost, not for fuel efficiency.

[Scotracer]

So only hot air spins a turbine? You say not a turbine, however I am talking specifically about a turbine.

it doesn't have to differentiate, as when it doesn't spin, the KERS device/battery gets no energy. no harm no foul.

Maybe the KERS flywheel type system could be coupled directly to a turbine, much like a compressor is attached in a turbo's turbine. If it was linked 50/50 to the driveline to capture the vehicles forward motion, what would it be? HKERS?

Take the heat away, for example, while engine braking, and the motor is just pumping ambient air, the turbine still spins. If a tank of water was there, and was heated by the exhaust, and the steam drove a compressor, then yeah, HERS.

Tell me how a turbine captures and reuses heat energy, because I am missing some point you are trying to make.

I am looking at ways to supplement a currently underpowered flywheel system using tried and tested ways, like turbines, to make it a more viable, integrated system that wastes less fuel.

If a KERS device, like a flywheel, or its battery, can be charged at other times other than braking, it could make this kind of more viable for a future F1.

Sorry if this exploration of off the sidelines of todays standard KERS devices in their infancy is off topic, but I am trying to see how other forms of energy recapture could assist KERS in a near future F1 of 2012.

Wind turbines are hideously inefficient at turning air across the rotor into torque about the shaft. They also produce huge amounts of drag. I don't see it working.

[xpensive]

If we focus on the subject of recovering and storing the vehicle's kinetic energy, instead of converting it into heat through the brakes, we have so far identified three differnt ways of storing said energy, electric battery, flywheel and a hydraulic accumulator.

Did I miss something?

[ISLAMATRON]

capacitors, I read somewhere that was BMW's way of going about it and that is why heirs was so heavy, not sure though... anyone got any ideas on that?

[Scotracer]

capacitors, I read somewhere that was BMW's way of going about it and that is why heirs was so heavy, not sure though... anyone got any ideas on that?

Ultra-capacitors are usually higher energy-density than batteries. Odd they would say that. If I were making a system I'd use an Ultra-capacitor rather than a battery - particularly since discharge rate is what you are looking for.

[speedsense]

Mclaren's sudden increase in performance is partially do to the reduction in weight of their generator,electronic brain and storage in their KERS system. Total weight of these components is now 25kg.
http://www.autosport.com/news/grapevine.php/id/77977

[ISLAMATRON]

Mclaren's sudden increase in performance is partially do to the reduction in weight of their generator,electronic brain and storage in their KERS system. Total weight of these components is now 25kg.
http://www.autosport.com/news/grapevine.php/id/77977

nope, it has been the case since at least april viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6714, if not Australia.

The sudden performance bump is almost all aero related and has nothing to do with KERS, KERS has been the teams only true positive since the beginning of the season. Some would have you think that KERS is what made them slow to begin with but that is obviously not the truth.