2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[214270]

https://www.motorsportweek.com/2024/03/ ... struggles/

“Because there are sessions throughout the weekend and also the last two ones where we are absolutely right up there in terms of performance. And then we lose it again.

“P3 within tenths of everybody else. Quali? Seven. And then race pace was never there this weekend.

“You could see that McLaren and Ferrari were going seven, eight-tenths quicker on Friday already and we had no answer to that.”

Well played. I doubt unfortunately it’ll shut the HAM naysayers up, talons are out.

[Venturiation]

https://www.motorsportweek.com/2024/03/ ... struggles/

“Because there are sessions throughout the weekend and also the last two ones where we are absolutely right up there in terms of performance. And then we lose it again.

“P3 within tenths of everybody else. Quali? Seven. And then race pace was never there this weekend.

“You could see that McLaren and Ferrari were going seven, eight-tenths quicker on Friday already and we had no answer to that.”

They are going to say it's fake or ai generated
The goal for most of them is just say bad things about lewis not matter how

[Dunlay]

A reporter asking a leading question and Toto not answering specific to Lewis, but as a whole, about their situation, doesn't really say it's only Hamilton that does the experiments. It's a common knowledge that every team tries to run experimental or development parts on both cars, either at the same time or alternatively. I find it strange to see why this is being attributed to Hamilton alone while team personnel at various points has made it clear that it's both drivers that does the job. Nothing against Hamilton, but the objectives need to be fair.

[PlatinumZealot]

It's funny reading Wolff's "we have a physics problem, in the past we always understood the car and now we don't" and not laugh while remembering 2017/18 seasons and constant moaning about having a "diva"

Allison's statement from around preseason testing was very telling, going along the lines of "before we could do an upgrade and it always adds performance (downforce) and now with these cars we can't do it like that" It just confirms their aero development was basically "add winglets, strakes, wing level etc and it will go faster" because of PU supremacy. Even in 2021 this still held true.

It does not seem they bothered too much with checking how the car would behave in (as many as needed) challenging conditions on track, they could just take away or add a bit of wing front or rear to balance the car and just went for it... This level of incompetence is shocking, honestly. To think this team secured 8 consecutive WCCs...

That bold statement highlighted by Vanja pretty much summarized Mercedes tenure of domination since 2014 to 2021

Because of the baked in advantage of the PU they were able to get away with ‘top downforce’ (high downforce- high drag). Hence why majority of not all of the cars suffered in dirty air and predominantly needed clean air to be quick.

On the contrary RedBull had to heavily rely on aero (predominantly underbody) to compensate for the PU deficit, could be the reason why they utilized the high-rake concept which I feel payed massive dividends in added knowledge to the ground effect regulations.

Also makes sense why Mercedes (and Aston Martin) were hampered with the cut out of the floor in 2021.

Funny how this team was built on the success of Brawn GP, who so happened to build a car that had high underbody downforce (double diffuser loophole).

You took the bait as Ross Brawn woul say back in 2014. The engine was good, but believe you me the chassis was also one of the best under the flat floor hybrid regs.

Force India and Williams also had that engine and while it did move them up the field it wasn't a silver bullet. Once the engines were normalized, perhaps even some rivals' engines exceeding Mercedes' own, the Mercedes chasiss still could hold it's own. What we are seeing here today in the ground effect regs is not chassis incompetence but a phyisics talent gap in the Mercedes ranks.

[PlatinumZealot]

A reporter asking a leading question and Toto not answering specific to Lewis, but as a whole, about their situation, doesn't really say it's only Hamilton that does the experiments. It's a common knowledge that every team tries to run experimental or development parts on both cars, either at the same time or alternatively. I find it strange to see why this is being attributed to Hamilton alone while team personnel at various points has made it clear that it's both drivers that does the job. Nothing against Hamilton, but the objectives need to be fair.

He has been experimenting since 2022. Too many sources to refute this. No one is saying it makes him slower. Actually it's perfect time to experiment when you drive a mid-field car!

[venkyhere]

. What we are seeing here today in the ground effect regs is not chassis incompetence but a phyisics talent gap in the Mercedes ranks.

This is the TotoWolff narrative. As if physics and engineering are disjoint with each other. Science forms the foundation of engineering --the "physics" of air molecule behavior is the foundation of aerodynamics engineering. The use of "physics" word is just clever PR.

And I'm sure you already know, in the ground effect regulations, aero and chassis are not separate engineering disciplines.

[cheeRS]

It's funny reading Wolff's "we have a physics problem, in the past we always understood the car and now we don't" and not laugh while remembering 2017/18 seasons and constant moaning about having a "diva"

Allison's statement from around preseason testing was very telling, going along the lines of "before we could do an upgrade and it always adds performance (downforce) and now with these cars we can't do it like that" It just confirms their aero development was basically "add winglets, strakes, wing level etc and it will go faster" because of PU supremacy. Even in 2021 this still held true.

It does not seem they bothered too much with checking how the car would behave in (as many as needed) challenging conditions on track, they could just take away or add a bit of wing front or rear to balance the car and just went for it... This level of incompetence is shocking, honestly. To think this team secured 8 consecutive WCCs...

That bold statement highlighted by Vanja pretty much summarized Mercedes tenure of domination since 2014 to 2021

Because of the baked in advantage of the PU they were able to get away with ‘top downforce’ (high downforce- high drag). Hence why majority of not all of the cars suffered in dirty air and predominantly needed clean air to be quick.

On the contrary RedBull had to heavily rely on aero (predominantly underbody) to compensate for the PU deficit, could be the reason why they utilized the high-rake concept which I feel payed massive dividends in added knowledge to the ground effect regulations.

Also makes sense why Mercedes (and Aston Martin) were hampered with the cut out of the floor in 2021.

Funny how this team was built on the success of Brawn GP, who so happened to build a car that had high underbody downforce (double diffuser loophole).

You took the bait as Ross Brawn woul say back in 2014. The engine was good, but believe you me the chassis was also one of the best under the flat floor hybrid regs.

Force India and Williams also had that engine and while it did move them up the field it wasn't a silver bullet. Once the engines were normalized, perhaps even some rivals' engines exceeding Mercedes' own, the Mercedes chasiss still could hold it's own. What we are seeing here today in the ground effect regs is not chassis incompetence but a phyisics talent gap in the Mercedes ranks.

Agree 100% PlatinumZealot, and just for the record, we have disagreed many times over many years.

In the last year or so there has been this narrative that "oh, see! Mercedes has always just been good with the engine and now it's coming to haunt them and their terrible chassis/aero team!"

Even Vanja and some of the other self proclaimed aero 'experts' subscribe to this same misconception/narrative.

The truth is - if one has any tolerance for it - is that F1 performance is much more than just "the engine is good" or "the aero and chassis are good". I would argue - with many examples to back it up - that very rarely does a team win a championship with a simple silver bullet - 2009 notwithstanding.

I do find it subjectively hilarious that the team that utterly dominated F1 for nearly a decade is criticized without merit, while the team that was in the position they are in now -ten years ago - is deemed to be full of guile and godlike wisdom. Where was RBR engineering from 2014-2021... oh yeah... it was the engine that was the problem Talk about a bandwagon.

[Jurgen von Diaz]

A reporter asking a leading question and Toto not answering specific to Lewis, but as a whole, about their situation, doesn't really say it's only Hamilton that does the experiments. It's a common knowledge that every team tries to run experimental or development parts on both cars, either at the same time or alternatively. I find it strange to see why this is being attributed to Hamilton alone while team personnel at various points has made it clear that it's both drivers that does the job. Nothing against Hamilton, but the objectives need to be fair.

He has been experimenting since 2022. Too many sources to refute this. No one is saying it makes him slower. Actually it's perfect time to experiment when you drive a mid-field car!

Russell made experiments too '22, it's just Hamilton and Merc makes a big deal when Hamilton does it and goes wrong.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/faile ... /10320961/

While that floor continued a recent trend where Hamilton’s choices had not proved to be the best, Wolff felt that pushing on with experiments across both its cars was essential.

“These last three races, these experiments have gone wrong with Lewis and not with George.”

[RonMexico]

That bold statement highlighted by Vanja pretty much summarized Mercedes tenure of domination since 2014 to 2021

Because of the baked in advantage of the PU they were able to get away with ‘top downforce’ (high downforce- high drag). Hence why majority of not all of the cars suffered in dirty air and predominantly needed clean air to be quick.

On the contrary RedBull had to heavily rely on aero (predominantly underbody) to compensate for the PU deficit, could be the reason why they utilized the high-rake concept which I feel payed massive dividends in added knowledge to the ground effect regulations.

Also makes sense why Mercedes (and Aston Martin) were hampered with the cut out of the floor in 2021.

Funny how this team was built on the success of Brawn GP, who so happened to build a car that had high underbody downforce (double diffuser loophole).

You took the bait as Ross Brawn woul say back in 2014. The engine was good, but believe you me the chassis was also one of the best under the flat floor hybrid regs.

Force India and Williams also had that engine and while it did move them up the field it wasn't a silver bullet. Once the engines were normalized, perhaps even some rivals' engines exceeding Mercedes' own, the Mercedes chasiss still could hold it's own. What we are seeing here today in the ground effect regs is not chassis incompetence but a phyisics talent gap in the Mercedes ranks.

Agree 100% PlatinumZealot, and just for the record, we have disagreed many times over many years.

In the last year or so there has been this narrative that "oh, see! Mercedes has always just been good with the engine and now it's coming to haunt them and their terrible chassis/aero team!"

Even Vanja and some of the other self proclaimed aero 'experts' subscribe to this same misconception/narrative.

The truth is - if one has any tolerance for it - is that F1 performance is much more than just "the engine is good" or "the aero and chassis are good". I would argue - with many examples to back it up - that very rarely does a team win a championship with a simple silver bullet - 2009 notwithstanding.

I do find it subjectively hilarious that the team that utterly dominated F1 for nearly a decade is criticized without merit, while the team that was in the position they are in now -ten years ago - is deemed to be full of guile and godlike wisdom. Where was RBR engineering from 2014-2021... oh yeah... it was the engine that was the problem Talk about a bandwagon.

How do you square the circle that is Mercedes struggling badly once engine parity was achieved?

[JordanMugen]

I do find it subjectively hilarious that the team that utterly dominated F1 for nearly a decade is criticized without merit, while the team that was in the position they are in now -ten years ago - is deemed to be full of guile and godlike wisdom. Where was RBR engineering from 2014-2021... oh yeah... it was the engine that was the problem

Mercedes HPP did not supply an equivalent engine to Red Bull Racing from 2016 onwards, so how can anyone know? It would have been a great fit with Red Bull's Aston Martin sponsorship too, would have gained a political ally for voting, AND would have already made Verstappen a Mercedes brand ambassador like I said (something Wolff seems keen to achieve now).

Ford RBPT have already offered their power units to McLaren Racing and I'm sure they would offer them to Ineos F1 Team too, should Mercedes-Benz leave the sport.

[Luscion]

Interestingly, George was back in the sim today but still at Melbourne, assuming they're trying to figure out their correlation issues before Japan

[scuderiabrandon]

Interestingly, George was back in the sim today but still at Melbourne, assuming they're trying to figure out their correlation issues before Japan

all teams do this exactly for correlation reasons.

[Mosin123]

You took the bait as Ross Brawn woul say back in 2014. The engine was good, but believe you me the chassis was also one of the best under the flat floor hybrid regs.

Force India and Williams also had that engine and while it did move them up the field it wasn't a silver bullet. Once the engines were normalized, perhaps even some rivals' engines exceeding Mercedes' own, the Mercedes chasiss still could hold it's own. What we are seeing here today in the ground effect regs is not chassis incompetence but a phyisics talent gap in the Mercedes ranks.

Agree 100% PlatinumZealot, and just for the record, we have disagreed many times over many years.

In the last year or so there has been this narrative that "oh, see! Mercedes has always just been good with the engine and now it's coming to haunt them and their terrible chassis/aero team!"

Even Vanja and some of the other self proclaimed aero 'experts' subscribe to this same misconception/narrative.

The truth is - if one has any tolerance for it - is that F1 performance is much more than just "the engine is good" or "the aero and chassis are good". I would argue - with many examples to back it up - that very rarely does a team win a championship with a simple silver bullet - 2009 notwithstanding.

I do find it subjectively hilarious that the team that utterly dominated F1 for nearly a decade is criticized without merit, while the team that was in the position they are in now -ten years ago - is deemed to be full of guile and godlike wisdom. Where was RBR engineering from 2014-2021... oh yeah... it was the engine that was the problem Talk about a bandwagon.

How do you square the circle that is Mercedes struggling badly once engine parity was achieved?

Would it not be when the budget cap forced them to lose a lot of top staff?

[Dunlay]

Agree 100% PlatinumZealot, and just for the record, we have disagreed many times over many years.

In the last year or so there has been this narrative that "oh, see! Mercedes has always just been good with the engine and now it's coming to haunt them and their terrible chassis/aero team!"

Even Vanja and some of the other self proclaimed aero 'experts' subscribe to this same misconception/narrative.

The truth is - if one has any tolerance for it - is that F1 performance is much more than just "the engine is good" or "the aero and chassis are good". I would argue - with many examples to back it up - that very rarely does a team win a championship with a simple silver bullet - 2009 notwithstanding.

I do find it subjectively hilarious that the team that utterly dominated F1 for nearly a decade is criticized without merit, while the team that was in the position they are in now -ten years ago - is deemed to be full of guile and godlike wisdom. Where was RBR engineering from 2014-2021... oh yeah... it was the engine that was the problem Talk about a bandwagon.

How do you square the circle that is Mercedes struggling badly once engine parity was achieved?

Would it not be when the budget cap forced them to lose a lot of top staff?

So has been the case with Red Bull too. Current Mercedes situation is a good example to know that the top level management folks don't do much in terms of designing the cars. On one hand Red Bull lost so many key names, yet continues to perform better than any other team in the given scenario, whereas Mercedes struggles. Ferrari doesn't have great names in their top ranks, yet they continue to be in the top 3 and sometimes lead the field (although for less than full season or even half). It's not the big names that conceive ideas or design the cars, it's somewhere in the middle level and if that layer at Mercedes is not getting a hang of these regulations, then it doesn't matter whether it's Elliott or Allison that leads them.

[basti313]

https://www.motorsportweek.com/2024/03/ ... struggles/

“Because there are sessions throughout the weekend and also the last two ones where we are absolutely right up there in terms of performance. And then we lose it again.

“P3 within tenths of everybody else. Quali? Seven. And then race pace was never there this weekend.

“You could see that McLaren and Ferrari were going seven, eight-tenths quicker on Friday already and we had no answer to that.”

Well...what we can clearly see is that they do not move from FP1 to Q in a good way, while others get better especially from Friday night to Saturday. You can say, the feedback is maybe not good, but still the setup is not changed by the drivers in Melbourne, but by the drivers in the sim in the factories.
Who is in the sim for Merc? Mick Schumacher was in Melbourne.