F1 active suspension

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allow active suspension: yes or no

YES
47
50%
NO
47
50%
 
Total votes: 94

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
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Joined: 13 Oct 2019, 03:02

Re: F1 active suspension

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Everyone forgets the original Williams active suspension was derived from an ambulance leveling system, before being improved upon by the team.

Arguably it would be more road relevant than anything else on the car.

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Chuckjr
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Re: F1 active suspension

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Hoffman900 wrote:
30 Apr 2024, 14:49
Arguably it would be more road relevant than anything else on the car.
This.
Yes.
Watching F1 since 1986.

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Richard C
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Joined: 17 Mar 2014, 19:46

Re: F1 active suspension

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My post that revived this thread was on the tail end of the prior page. So we rolled over to this page quickly. I am curious as to comments on my idea. In short, spec components and limited number of components. Might that make active suspension a viable option that addresses concerns brought up in this thread earlier. See that post for more specifics.
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one."

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lucafo
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Re: F1 active suspension

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Richard C wrote:
29 Apr 2024, 22:22
I have an idea on how to implement Active Suspension and am curious as to people’s thoughts regarding the viability. I have read over this thread and much of it is over a decade old. It seems that concerns are around the following:
  • Active Suspension is a driver’s aid (or not). Depending upon your perspective this is a good or bad thing.
  • Issues around safety such as the potential loss of control as part of a total system.
  • Cost would be high due to various factors such as bespoke parts, complexity of solutions and potential for expensive development war between teams without it being a real performance differentiator.
I think the first issue is somewhat a philosophical question that can’t be answered one way or another objectively. I think F1 in total can’t decide what exactly it is. Is it sport or entertainment, is it high tech or not, etc. The second, I think, can be mitigated well enough but not fully. Nothing in F1 is without some level of risk, but the solution should require safe failure modes. In short, think the first two can be addressed. My idea focuses on challenges much closer to the third item.

What if an active suspension solution utilized a core strategy of using spec and fixed number of components?
  1. Items such as sensors, actuators, pumps, etc. would both be spec components and with a fixed number of each/type.
  2. ECU for the solution would be a spec/homologated unit much like used for the power unit.
The idea is that it moves suspension design away from trying to create complex mechanical solutions into the future. I feel that given the level of technical concept that have been banned (i.e. Tuned mass damper, Inerter, FRIC) that the solutions have become more and more esoteric and costly. F1 suspension is costly mechanical watches living in an age of cheap quartz watches that keep better time.

As to cost, we are in a cost cap era. Teams don’t want new areas of development that will not be differentiators. However, I think teams might like something new that should level the field and maybe stabilize costs. This should move design, development and prototyping away from costly physical components and into software solutions that can be designed, developed and prototyped virtually. I think this would reduce overall development costs and should produce more performance parity between teams.

Beyond the core concept of spec physical components, the regulations can have other limitations to help prevent development in undesired areas or other unintended consequence.
  • Address head on topics such as using active suspension as part of active aero such as changing ride height or rake to impact the level of drag (such as lower drag on long straights). Maybe it’s allowed to be part of active aero? Or maybe not!
  • Allow or prevent such things as “track learning.”
  • Allow or prevent solution from working directly with engine ECU. (Potentially combine active aero and engine ecu into one if that makes sense.)
  • Fixed number of “driver modes” (require more driver input vs. automatic solutioning by the system)
  • Unobfuscated code would be provided to governing body for examination (as needed)
  • Clearly define where suspension movement can exist (to prevent creation of solutions that work alongside of, but outside of the boundaries defined above)
In short, the regulations can decide how smart or dumb and interconnected the solution can be. F1 has a history of taking parts that are not significantly visible to the fans and making these as spec parts to save money. Suspension internals can be done the same.

What concerns do I have? Switching to this would have an initial up-front cost. But that is not too different than any new concept (such as active aero). But it would be an issue. Cars have gotten heavier since the last time active suspension was allowed. Solutions will need to be more powerful (heavier?) than before. Will a move to active suspension be a net neutral, positive or negative weight impact? I “hope” that an active solution can be built to weigh less than current solutions and yet outperform them. There is also the potential for unexpected areas of development. The regulations would have to be clear that playing outside of the defined box is not allowed.
My question is: how hydraulic actuators would be lighter than (mini) springs and dampers?
I am for the active suspension, but it need to have more details. Maybe only for rear axle?

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: F1 active suspension

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lucafo wrote:
30 Apr 2024, 23:47
My question is: how hydraulic actuators would be lighter than (mini) springs and dampers?
I am for the active suspension, but it need to have more details. Maybe only for rear axle?
The point of active suspension is to keep the floor in the correct place in relation to the ground. Just having it on one axle won't do that.

As for being lighter, the point is that active keeps the aero platform stable which means the car is quicker around the lap. That's the only reason to do it and it's why the FW14B was 1s+ quicker than anything else at some tracks, the FW15C nearly 2s a lap quicker in places. The margin weight gain is offset by the massive aero gain.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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Richard C
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Re: F1 active suspension

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lucafo wrote:
30 Apr 2024, 23:47
My question is: how hydraulic actuators would be lighter than (mini) springs and dampers?
It's a valid question. I am broadly wondering if things like sensors, and harnesses would be a wash. I can imagine there being a net weight gain (maybe small?) if you replace both spring and damper with an actuator. Any type of pump would be extra weight. I call out "safe failure modes", so does that mean some type of basic bump stop or spring that prevents the car from fully settling on the ground? If so, then this aggravates the weight issue as you may still have some level of physical springs and the associated mounting hardware. I dug into some old posts and some did provide some either hard data or guestimates as to the weight of prior implementations. As mentioned already above, the performance benefit may be enough to overcome weight gains. And clearly prior usage in F1 showed it was superior to what was otherwise state of the art mechanical solutions. I would love to hear from someone who may have direct knowledge as to how much all of this might actually weigh, the components to make it work and comments as to the general idea of spec components and development living in the software (virtual) side vs. mechanical (physical) world.
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one."

Greg Locock
Greg Locock
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Re: F1 active suspension

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Hoffman900 wrote:
30 Apr 2024, 14:49
Everyone forgets the original Williams active suspension was derived from an ambulance leveling system, before being improved upon by the team.

Arguably it would be more road relevant than anything else on the car.
But what was the much earlier Lotus system based on?
Anyway, active is not a whole lot more useful than MRD on road cars.

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Stu
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Re: F1 active suspension

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Greg Locock wrote:
01 May 2024, 06:13
Hoffman900 wrote:
30 Apr 2024, 14:49
Everyone forgets the original Williams active suspension was derived from an ambulance leveling system, before being improved upon by the team.

Arguably it would be more road relevant than anything else on the car.
But what was the much earlier Lotus system based on?
I remember that it got used on tanks (specifically trialled on a Scorpion tank in the early eighties) to create a stable gun platform while on the move.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

Greg Locock
Greg Locock
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Re: F1 active suspension

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Oh it was used in lots of things, but it wasn't developed from anything else, it was designed for the 92, which raced in 1983. But then the road car (Lotus Engineering) people took over as it was heavy. It reappeared in 1987 for a year, fairly successfully.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: F1 active suspension

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Richard C wrote:
01 May 2024, 03:28
lucafo wrote:
30 Apr 2024, 23:47
My question is: how hydraulic actuators would be lighter than (mini) springs and dampers?
It's a valid question.... I can imagine there being a net weight gain (maybe small?) if you replace both spring and damper with an actuator. Any type of pump would be extra weight. I call out "safe failure modes", so does that mean some type of basic bump stop or spring that prevents the car from fully settling on the ground? ....
on the successful Williams car the hydraulics were low frequency and so additional to springs and dampers
(only) on the less successful Lotus car did the hydraulics replace springs and dampers

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
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Re: F1 active suspension

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Greg Locock wrote:
01 May 2024, 07:25
Oh it was used in lots of things, but it wasn't developed from anything else, it was designed for the 92, which raced in 1983. But then the road car (Lotus Engineering) people took over as it was heavy. It reappeared in 1987 for a year, fairly successfully.
Active Suspension was used in various street cars for 30 years prior. So while Chapman was the first to adopt it to race cars and his design was his, it was not an original idea.

Dernie talks about their system and its origin starting at 18:00:


My ultimate point is though, F1 keeps claiming there needs to be road relevance, when they banned one of the things that came from the road and is road relevant. There is very little on a F1 car that would ever have road relevance except something like that.

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SiLo
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Re: F1 active suspension

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I think active suspension would solve a lot of problems for teams. I'm fairly certain the R&D that goes into traditional suspension setups to somehow act like active suspension is far higher and far more complex than some relatively simple fast actuators and software that goes along with keeping the car flat.

Maybe they would induce the rear to change at certain speeds on straights, but beyond that there isn't too much else that they can do.
Felipe Baby!

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Zynerji
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Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: F1 active suspension

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It would be very interesting to see a serious plus/delta chart between a current active/reactive system, and a full hydraulic FRIC-like setup from 2021.

I much prefer the "mechanical" tuning of the FRIC type hydraulic systems over the computer operated active ones.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: F1 active suspension

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SiLo wrote:
01 May 2024, 16:01
... keeping the car flat.
.... induce the rear to change at certain speeds on straights .....
couldn't they keep the car flat etc by designing an active aero system ?
(like planes and missiles have)

(now) active aero is ... so ... now !!

Farnborough
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Re: F1 active suspension

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SiLo wrote:
01 May 2024, 16:01
I think active suspension would solve a lot of problems for teams. I'm fairly certain the R&D that goes into traditional suspension setups to somehow act like active suspension is far higher and far more complex than some relatively simple fast actuators and software that goes along with keeping the car flat.

Maybe they would induce the rear to change at certain speeds on straights, but beyond that there isn't too much else that they can do.
If they can't design and operate a completely passive system, as it stands in this rule iteration, what makes anyone think that they could with active ?

It seems they don’t know exactly what they want and how to design it, evidenced by the one team that does. And it was like this with notable active or frics type system too .... one team realitively dominant.

It just shifts it to another plane, something like this, predicted as a FIX for supposed anomaly.