2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

[Vanja #66]

This is more of a missjudgement by their part other than a major weakness. It's true they work the tires harder than RBR and Ferrari, but this is manageable to some extent in qualifying. It's the race where it's tough to deal with it. It shouldn't have been like this on a quali session, but oh well, let's see how things pan out the rest of the weekend.

In general I agree and it's of course much easier to manage in Q. However, seeing Norris flying and on it in SQ2, I was 99% sure both of them will overcook on Softs. They won't make the same mistake in Q tomorrow, but I really hope they can manage the Sprint and make it more interesting.

[Emag]

I fundamentally disagree above with those who say the tires were overheated. No and again no. You just have to find the optimal settings for the tires soft. What does overheating have to do with it? If you overheat the tires all at once, you can't cool them down quickly on a fast lap. It doesn't work like that. The problem lies in the fine-tuning of the differential and things like that. Don't forget, the chassis has been updated and maybe the car isn't prone to understeer now. Perhaps there is a lot of grip at the front and less at the rear in terms of percentage. In one practice and one lap on soft tires it is impossible to optimally adjust the chassis. Just give time. Already now we can see that the car is capable of taking pole. It remains a little patience.

After the sprint race, the mechanics will definitely adjust the settings. It remains to be seen how many race weekends it will take to unlock the full potential of the updates, and drivers will need time to adapt. I'm sure this is the case. Soft C4 tires are quite durable on this track, the race here is stable with one pit stop, so it is impossible for C4 tires to overheat on smooth asphalt. I don't believe in that. This is not Suzuka, where it is easy to overheat the tires. Moreover, there is little downforce, which means less load on the tires.

You can absolutely have a car + setup combo which overheats the tires through high-energy corners. You can try it yourself on any half-decent simulator (rf2, iRacing or Assetto Corsa) by putting tire pressures way down to exaggerate the effect. Try taking corners at full speed like that and watch the temps sky-rocket. Having a combination of straights + slow corners will help cool it down pretty quickly as well.

There is no need to compare simulators and real F1 with Pirelli tires. I have never seen a completely realistic model of tire behavior anywhere. All of them are assembled from various pieces of code, trying only to imitate real physics. Experienced drivers say that the physics of tires in the same iRacing is very different depending on whether it is an updated model or not. This is just program code, nothing more.

The pressure is set low, the asphalt is smooth. It is impossible to instantly overheat the tires in 2 turns and then continue to skid. There is either underheating, or a gust of wind, or non-optimal machine settings. Both cars skidded. Didn’t you notice that earlier this year this never happened with McLaren?

I think you're vastly underestimating how critical temperatures are for tire performance. Two high-energy corners on a car which hasn't been setup properly to deal with it will push tires 5-10 degrees over what's the optimal range for maximum grip and the tire will no longer provide what you're asking from it. It's not as simple as "asphalt smooth = tires don't scrub".

And also, the lower the pressures, the higher the temps, so perhaps you meant to say the opposite? Either way, the pressures are kind of fixed on a track basis by Pirelli anyway. At least the min-max ranges are.

Gust of wind doesn't affect consecutive corners like that. This literally looks almost text-book tires overheating by that clip that was shared. Almost exact same behavior you get on racing simulators when you overheat the tires as well.

And you're also underestimating these simulators as well. Of course they are not 1:1 with real life, but nothing is. Nevertheless, it is a pretty good approximation of real life. It is not just "program code". Tires are hard to model, that's true, but what real life driver's complain about doesn't have to do much with how temperatures are simulated.

And the comment about McLaren not showing this behavior early in the season is both valid and incorrect. Races early on in the season had much lower track temps, this was the first hotter race of the season so you can't make a direct comparison. But your statement is valid because they haven't fumbled like this earlier in the season.

However, it is also incorrect, because it's exactly this trait they have that made them so competitive in China. They work the tires more and put more energy through them which made it easier for their car to deal with the lower temperatures there compared to Ferrari.

[MTudor]

Great to see the team pushing for upgrades. Even though it being a spring weekend they will not have as much time to dial in the setup, it shows they are pushing hard.

So is this confirmed to be the first real work from the new tunnel?

Pretty much yes. This is the new tunnel upgrade and coming from Rob Marshall.

It's a little bit early for Marshall to have an impact in the team,more likelly when the second upgrade will come.

[mwillems]

This was more like MarioKart than iRacing.

[Xyz22]

I can't wait to see Pirelli out of this sport really.

Their products have been pure garbage since the first day.

[LionsHeart]

You can absolutely have a car + setup combo which overheats the tires through high-energy corners. You can try it yourself on any half-decent simulator (rf2, iRacing or Assetto Corsa) by putting tire pressures way down to exaggerate the effect. Try taking corners at full speed like that and watch the temps sky-rocket. Having a combination of straights + slow corners will help cool it down pretty quickly as well.

There is no need to compare simulators and real F1 with Pirelli tires. I have never seen a completely realistic model of tire behavior anywhere. All of them are assembled from various pieces of code, trying only to imitate real physics. Experienced drivers say that the physics of tires in the same iRacing is very different depending on whether it is an updated model or not. This is just program code, nothing more.

The pressure is set low, the asphalt is smooth. It is impossible to instantly overheat the tires in 2 turns and then continue to skid. There is either underheating, or a gust of wind, or non-optimal machine settings. Both cars skidded. Didn’t you notice that earlier this year this never happened with McLaren?

I think you're vastly underestimating how critical temperatures are for tire performance. Two high-energy corners on a car which hasn't been setup properly to deal with it will push tires 5-10 degrees over what's the optimal range for maximum grip and the tire will no longer provide what you're asking from it. It's not as simple as "asphalt smooth = tires don't scrub".

And also, the lower the pressures, the higher the temps, so perhaps you meant to say the opposite? Either way, the pressures are kind of fixed on a track basis by Pirelli anyway. At least the min-max ranges are.

Gust of wind doesn't affect consecutive corners like that. This literally looks almost text-book tires overheating by that clip that was shared. Almost exact same behavior you get on racing simulators when you overheat the tires as well.

And you're also underestimating these simulators as well. Of course they are not 1:1 with real life, but nothing is. Nevertheless, it is a pretty good approximation of real life. It is not just "program code". Tires are hard to model, that's true, but what real life driver's complain about doesn't have to do much with how temperatures are simulated.

And the comment about McLaren not showing this behavior early in the season is both valid and incorrect. Races early on in the season had much lower track temps, this was the first hotter race of the season so you can't make a direct comparison. But your statement is valid because they haven't fumbled like this earlier in the season.

However, it is also incorrect, because it's exactly this trait they have that made them so competitive in China. They work the tires more and put more energy through them which made it easier for their car to deal with the lower temperatures there compared to Ferrari.

If I agree with you, then it turns out they should have overheated them in the first place. Because the tire temperature does not heat up so quickly in 2 turns. This way, only the working layer can heat up, but not the sidewall itself. And why did only McLaren drivers experience this? Why did everything go more or less smoothly for the rest? So Lando and Oscar suddenly forgot how to drive in warm weather? Sounds like crazy.

So far I am inclined to believe that the settings were not optimal. It's incredible how grippy tires start to slip and go slower than medium tires. By the way, what is the temperature of the asphalt? I just didn’t see the data before practice and sprint qualifying. It would be interesting to know. To me it looks like the tires were underheated to begin with.

I've been watching F1 for a long time and this is the first time I've seen soft tires overheat after turn 2. This usually happened towards the 3rd sector of the track, when the tires began to float.

[Emag]

There is no need to compare simulators and real F1 with Pirelli tires. I have never seen a completely realistic model of tire behavior anywhere. All of them are assembled from various pieces of code, trying only to imitate real physics. Experienced drivers say that the physics of tires in the same iRacing is very different depending on whether it is an updated model or not. This is just program code, nothing more.

The pressure is set low, the asphalt is smooth. It is impossible to instantly overheat the tires in 2 turns and then continue to skid. There is either underheating, or a gust of wind, or non-optimal machine settings. Both cars skidded. Didn’t you notice that earlier this year this never happened with McLaren?

I think you're vastly underestimating how critical temperatures are for tire performance. Two high-energy corners on a car which hasn't been setup properly to deal with it will push tires 5-10 degrees over what's the optimal range for maximum grip and the tire will no longer provide what you're asking from it. It's not as simple as "asphalt smooth = tires don't scrub".

And also, the lower the pressures, the higher the temps, so perhaps you meant to say the opposite? Either way, the pressures are kind of fixed on a track basis by Pirelli anyway. At least the min-max ranges are.

Gust of wind doesn't affect consecutive corners like that. This literally looks almost text-book tires overheating by that clip that was shared. Almost exact same behavior you get on racing simulators when you overheat the tires as well.

And you're also underestimating these simulators as well. Of course they are not 1:1 with real life, but nothing is. Nevertheless, it is a pretty good approximation of real life. It is not just "program code". Tires are hard to model, that's true, but what real life driver's complain about doesn't have to do much with how temperatures are simulated.

And the comment about McLaren not showing this behavior early in the season is both valid and incorrect. Races early on in the season had much lower track temps, this was the first hotter race of the season so you can't make a direct comparison. But your statement is valid because they haven't fumbled like this earlier in the season.

However, it is also incorrect, because it's exactly this trait they have that made them so competitive in China. They work the tires more and put more energy through them which made it easier for their car to deal with the lower temperatures there compared to Ferrari.

If I agree with you, then it turns out they should have overheated them in the first place. Because the tire temperature does not heat up so quickly in 2 turns. This way, only the working layer can heat up, but not the sidewall itself. And why did only McLaren drivers experience this? Why did everything go more or less smoothly for the rest? So Lando and Oscar suddenly forgot how to drive in warm weather? Sounds like crazy.

So far I am inclined to believe that the settings were not optimal. It's incredible how grippy tires start to slip and go slower than medium tires. By the way, what is the temperature of the asphalt? I just didn’t see the data before practice and sprint qualifying. It would be interesting to know. To me it looks like the tires were underheated to begin with.

I've been watching F1 for a long time and this is the first time I've seen soft tires overheat after turn 2. This usually happened towards the 3rd sector of the track, when the tires began to float.

My god dude, it went wrong for them because 1, the car puts more energy into the tires to begin with, and 2, because they clearly missed the mark with the setup. You can believe whatever you want to believe about tires and whether or not they can heat up after two corners (they can), but at least have a proper counter-argument.

It's not because of cold tires ...
If it was a problem of not putting enough heat into the tires they would have been out in q1 with the hards.

[LionsHeart]

I think you're vastly underestimating how critical temperatures are for tire performance. Two high-energy corners on a car which hasn't been setup properly to deal with it will push tires 5-10 degrees over what's the optimal range for maximum grip and the tire will no longer provide what you're asking from it. It's not as simple as "asphalt smooth = tires don't scrub".

And also, the lower the pressures, the higher the temps, so perhaps you meant to say the opposite? Either way, the pressures are kind of fixed on a track basis by Pirelli anyway. At least the min-max ranges are.

Gust of wind doesn't affect consecutive corners like that. This literally looks almost text-book tires overheating by that clip that was shared. Almost exact same behavior you get on racing simulators when you overheat the tires as well.

And you're also underestimating these simulators as well. Of course they are not 1:1 with real life, but nothing is. Nevertheless, it is a pretty good approximation of real life. It is not just "program code". Tires are hard to model, that's true, but what real life driver's complain about doesn't have to do much with how temperatures are simulated.

And the comment about McLaren not showing this behavior early in the season is both valid and incorrect. Races early on in the season had much lower track temps, this was the first hotter race of the season so you can't make a direct comparison. But your statement is valid because they haven't fumbled like this earlier in the season.

However, it is also incorrect, because it's exactly this trait they have that made them so competitive in China. They work the tires more and put more energy through them which made it easier for their car to deal with the lower temperatures there compared to Ferrari.

If I agree with you, then it turns out they should have overheated them in the first place. Because the tire temperature does not heat up so quickly in 2 turns. This way, only the working layer can heat up, but not the sidewall itself. And why did only McLaren drivers experience this? Why did everything go more or less smoothly for the rest? So Lando and Oscar suddenly forgot how to drive in warm weather? Sounds like crazy.

So far I am inclined to believe that the settings were not optimal. It's incredible how grippy tires start to slip and go slower than medium tires. By the way, what is the temperature of the asphalt? I just didn’t see the data before practice and sprint qualifying. It would be interesting to know. To me it looks like the tires were underheated to begin with.

I've been watching F1 for a long time and this is the first time I've seen soft tires overheat after turn 2. This usually happened towards the 3rd sector of the track, when the tires began to float.

My god dude, it went wrong for them because 1, the car puts more energy into the tires to begin with, and 2, because they clearly missed the mark with the setup. You can believe whatever you want to believe about tires and whether or not they can heat up after two corners (they can), but at least have a proper counter-argument.

It's not because of cold tires ...
If it was a problem of not putting enough heat into the tires they would have been out in q1 with the hards.

I'm talking about how the drivers prepared their tires for a fast lap. You're talking about completely different things.

How are you going to create high energy on the tires when the asphalt is smooth and there is little downforce? I don't understand. But I understand when this is really possible. When the asphalt is abrasive and there is a lot of downforce. Then, yes, a lot of energy is transferred to the tires.

Once again, look at Pirelli's data. It doesn't say that the Miami track puts a lot of stress on the tires.

[mwillems]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/norri ... /10606454/

“I think Lando did the quickest lap on the whole in SQ2, so a bit strange but I'll take P6."

On a sweltering weekend in Miami, Piastri is so far unconcerned about McLaren encountering dramatic tyre degradation issues in the sprint event.

“It's gonna be tough for everybody I think, but the tyres seem to be surviving ok, they are just very hot,” the Australian explained.

“Not too concerned, but it could be an exciting sprint. A few cars are out of position. Nobody has really had much consistency so it will be exciting tomorrow.”

[Dafnalina]

I buy the theory of the tyres overheating cause it explains why they were more competitive on hards and mediums, and why Lando's S1 was so bad. He himself said he pushed too hard and made a mistake in T1, which carried over for the rest of the sector.



It makes sense if you watch their onboards, too. But we'll see, maybe it's the opposite and they're having the Ferrari issue, though that would leave me with more doubts

[Emag]

If I agree with you, then it turns out they should have overheated them in the first place. Because the tire temperature does not heat up so quickly in 2 turns. This way, only the working layer can heat up, but not the sidewall itself. And why did only McLaren drivers experience this? Why did everything go more or less smoothly for the rest? So Lando and Oscar suddenly forgot how to drive in warm weather? Sounds like crazy.

So far I am inclined to believe that the settings were not optimal. It's incredible how grippy tires start to slip and go slower than medium tires. By the way, what is the temperature of the asphalt? I just didn’t see the data before practice and sprint qualifying. It would be interesting to know. To me it looks like the tires were underheated to begin with.

I've been watching F1 for a long time and this is the first time I've seen soft tires overheat after turn 2. This usually happened towards the 3rd sector of the track, when the tires began to float.

My god dude, it went wrong for them because 1, the car puts more energy into the tires to begin with, and 2, because they clearly missed the mark with the setup. You can believe whatever you want to believe about tires and whether or not they can heat up after two corners (they can), but at least have a proper counter-argument.

It's not because of cold tires ...
If it was a problem of not putting enough heat into the tires they would have been out in q1 with the hards.

I'm talking about how the drivers prepared their tires for a fast lap. You're talking about completely different things.

How are you going to create high energy on the tires when the asphalt is smooth and there is little downforce? I don't understand. But I understand when this is really possible. When the asphalt is abrasive and there is a lot of downforce. Then, yes, a lot of energy is transferred to the tires.

Once again, look at Pirelli's data. It doesn't say that the Miami track puts a lot of stress on the tires.

I am done arguing. You're taking way too many things for face value while simplifying matters to very few variables (and even then, you are wrong, because relatively speaking, low downforce for an F1 car is still high downforce. And asphalt abrasion is relevant to some extent, but that's why we have 5 compounds, so that Pirelli can pick the 3 softest sets that can deal with the track).

But just one last thing to close things off from my side, since you can't seem to believe tires can quickly heat up after 1-2 corners and quickly cool-off in a straight. There you go :

[Ben1980]

Just read on twitter Chris Medland saying RB (not rbr) said the soft would only be o
0.1 faster before today. Maybe others didn't pick that up. And therefore pushed a bit more.

Just a guess.

[Vanja #66]

I'm talking about how the drivers prepared their tires for a fast lap. You're talking about completely different things.

How are you going to create high energy on the tires when the asphalt is smooth and there is little downforce? I don't understand. But I understand when this is really possible. When the asphalt is abrasive and there is a lot of downforce. Then, yes, a lot of energy is transferred to the tires.

Once again, look at Pirelli's data. It doesn't say that the Miami track puts a lot of stress on the tires.

Downforce does not generate heat in the tyre. Cornering, braking and acceleration does. Or just in general - acceleration, both radial and tangential. Downforce, tyre compound, asphalt surface etc are some of the ingridients that determine how fast you can corner.

[mwillems]

I buy the theory of the tyres overheating cause it explains why they were more competitive on hards and mediums, and why Lando's S1 was so bad. He himself said he pushed too hard and made a mistake in T1, which carried over for the rest of the sector.



It makes sense if you watch their onboards, too. But we'll see, maybe it's the opposite and they're having the Ferrari issue, though that would leave me with more doubts

The harder tyres would work because the car just wasn't naturally overworking them so we didn't need to think too much about how we warmed them up. The soft tyre needed more though about the temps for the start of the lap and for when to push.

It is that last part that is disappointing, you should be able to push for a full lap on the softest compound, feels like Pirelli misjudged this one as much as Mclaren. What a useless tyre for this weekend.

[Emag]

I'm talking about how the drivers prepared their tires for a fast lap. You're talking about completely different things.

How are you going to create high energy on the tires when the asphalt is smooth and there is little downforce? I don't understand. But I understand when this is really possible. When the asphalt is abrasive and there is a lot of downforce. Then, yes, a lot of energy is transferred to the tires.

Once again, look at Pirelli's data. It doesn't say that the Miami track puts a lot of stress on the tires.

Downforce does not generate heat in the tyre. Cornering, braking and acceleration does. Or just in general - acceleration, both radial and tangential. Downforce, tyre compound, asphalt surface etc are some of the ingridients that determine how fast you can corner.

On a sidenote, wow, the RB9 had near-perfect temperature management.