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It seems Mclaren has taken a leap forward with correlation with their own wind tunnel.
Not saying a correlation = causation, but the two teams sharing the same WT do seem to be struggling with correlation.
Maybe nothing problem with the Mercedes wind tunnel, I mean was perfect for the previous car regulations,but can't support enough the ground effect cars. But I still think Aston problem is the tyres which was introduced last year before Hungary in Silverstone. This tyre rubber doesn't changed, but under the rubber compounds got an extra layer for the stronger side wall and less puncture and an extra layer inside as well . This little change made more stiff and rigid the tyres.Basically before in the corners the tyres absorbed more energy and side movement (more stable rear),more forgiveness, but with the new tyres the car loose grip easier or slide easier at fast corners. What happens if your tyres always loose grip or slide? Overheat, high tyre deg ,slower laptimes. After Silverstone Last year came Hungary. Aston simulator told to the team they will be good for podiums,but actually was a disaster. Nothing really changed just the tyres.
This reasoning was valid for 2023, but it no longer applies to 2024. The car was designed with awareness of the new tires. The strange thing is that they had stated several times that no they would have made the correlation errors of last year, when in reality the situation is even worse. There is something weird. However, it is unacceptable to go from 2 strength last year to almost fight outside the points now, whatever the reasons. Mercedes and Ferrari with totally wrong concepts were constantly fighting for the podium in anycase
Taking the racing pace from the first three races - Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and Australia - the Aston Martin was on average 0.895 seconds slower per lap than the fastest car. In the last four Grands Prix, however, the gap was 1.160 seconds.
In the qualifying pace, you have lost an average of another 0.275 seconds in the last four events compared to the first three.
Shows a table. Last year we were 4 Tenths off red bull over first several races and ended up 8 tenths off
Guys, however, it's really sad, a rider like this with this talent never finds the right path. It's really frustrating, plus they also give you useless hype, embarrassing updates
Taking the racing pace from the first three races - Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and Australia - the Aston Martin was on average 0.895 seconds slower per lap than the fastest car. In the last four Grands Prix, however, the gap was 1.160 seconds.
In the qualifying pace, you have lost an average of another 0.275 seconds in the last four events compared to the first three.
Shows a table. Last year we were 4 Tenths off red bull over first several races and ended up 8 tenths off
Yes but here's something interesting to look at. The loss is mostly on Alonso's side. Stroll has gained 0.3 seconds in quali pace and his race pace has gone up by an entire second and he has been the closes to P1 has has been in terms of raw race pace by a huge margin in. Weird but yeah
Taking the racing pace from the first three races - Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and Australia - the Aston Martin was on average 0.895 seconds slower per lap than the fastest car. In the last four Grands Prix, however, the gap was 1.160 seconds.
In the qualifying pace, you have lost an average of another 0.275 seconds in the last four events compared to the first three.
Shows a table. Last year we were 4 Tenths off red bull over first several races and ended up 8 tenths off
Yes but here's something interesting to look at. The loss is mostly on Alonso's side. Stroll has gained 0.3 seconds in quali pace and his race pace has gone up by an entire second and he has been the closes to P1 has has been in terms of raw race pace by a huge margin in. Weird but yeah
think alonso is gonna go the hamilton route from since ground effect era. testing different setups to try and extract the most and will fail at times.
but its weird. is it the synergy with the front and rear suspension. is it the tyres. i think they've tried running a stiffer suspension in miami and imola to help with race pace.
either way they have to figure it out. fans have ran out of patience looks like fernando and lawrence are reaching their limits
Any hope that Aston click at Monaco in a specialist slower speed circuit?
Struggling to read their car this season, last year looked like it was a very good car out of the box with mechanical grip but not the high speed efficiency of RBR.
This season they have seemed a little lost in finding their direction and gains, lots of talk saying they designed an SF23 where there was one lap pace but zero race pace.
Although that seemed to disappear a little the last couple of races, I thought it may give them a small window oto surprise at Monaco quali.
Any hope that Aston click at Monaco in a specialist slower speed circuit?
Struggling to read their car this season, last year looked like it was a very good car out of the box with mechanical grip but not the high speed efficiency of RBR.
This season they have seemed a little lost in finding their direction and gains, lots of talk saying they designed an SF23 where there was one lap pace but zero race pace.
Although that seemed to disappear a little the last couple of races, I thought it may give them a small window oto surprise at Monaco quali.
The sf23 was the best car in qualifying several times, the Aston was maximum the third fastest car in qualifying. Having said that, Monaco should help, but I don't see a qualifying in the top 5, considering the strength of McLaren in the slow and also of Mercedes lately. Let's hope so
Any hope that Aston click at Monaco in a specialist slower speed circuit?
Struggling to read their car this season, last year looked like it was a very good car out of the box with mechanical grip but not the high speed efficiency of RBR.
This season they have seemed a little lost in finding their direction and gains, lots of talk saying they designed an SF23 where there was one lap pace but zero race pace.
Although that seemed to disappear a little the last couple of races, I thought it may give them a small window oto surprise at Monaco quali.
The sf23 was the best car in qualifying several times, the Aston was maximum the third fastest car in qualifying. Having said that, Monaco should help, but I don't see a qualifying in the top 5, considering the strength of McLaren in the slow and also of Mercedes lately. Let's hope so
Alonso said the car was hard to drive. That usually equals ¨Death nail" at Monaco. Add to that how bad the car was in slow corners @ Imola
They need to figure something out before next Saturday, so there is always hope. On the positive side they finished ahead of both 6th place team cars.
Last edited by diffuser on 21 May 2024, 03:13, edited 1 time in total.
Taking the racing pace from the first three races - Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and Australia - the Aston Martin was on average 0.895 seconds slower per lap than the fastest car. In the last four Grands Prix, however, the gap was 1.160 seconds.
In the qualifying pace, you have lost an average of another 0.275 seconds in the last four events compared to the first three.
Shows a table. Last year we were 4 Tenths off red bull over first several races and ended up 8 tenths off
Yes but here's something interesting to look at. The loss is mostly on Alonso's side. Stroll has gained 0.3 seconds in quali pace and his race pace has gone up by an entire second and he has been the closes to P1 has has been in terms of raw race pace by a huge margin in. Weird but yeah
The strategy for Alonso at Imola was a short stint on Softs, then switch to Hards for a long stint, followed by a in between length stint on Mediums. This was to try and increase the age limits between his tires and the others to aid in passing. The Idea there was, to get ahead of the 3 cars(Albon, Bottas and Gasly) that pitted after him and get him in free air to allow him to catch up to Sargeant, Zhou and Magnussen who had older tires at that point. The First stint strategy worked, in that it forced some cars to pit MUCH earlier than they wanted from the medium tires they had on... It all went out the window at the first pit stop, when it took too long. Then he was out with the same age tires as those cars in front of him and the race loss.
He pitted for the softs at the end to try and take away the fastest lap and a point from Merc. He tried to arrange getting DRS from Stroll but somehow Stroll got to far in front and that didn't work out. I think all Stroll did was slow him down.
The pace on Hards by Alonso wasn't encouraging. he was slower that Bottas and even Albon. Alonso was very quiet during this stage of the race. Sounded like he was pissed. The Engineer made a recommendation to use the right toggle in corner 17 and Alonso's response was something like " You think it will work but I've tried and it doesn't so ....." and the radio broke up. The engineers response was "Ok Fernando". His Pace on Mediums was really good and Alonso was in a much better mood, he semed to be having a good time now. The tire lap difference between his tires and the other cars in front of him was so large, it would be hard to take that pace seriously.
It seems Mclaren has taken a leap forward with correlation with their own wind tunnel.
Not saying a correlation = causation, but the two teams sharing the same WT do seem to be struggling with correlation.
McLaren developed the 2023 car (including the major upgrades later in the season) in the old Toyota wind tunnel. Even their 2024 car was conceived using the old tunnel, even though upgrades for this car will likely come from parts tested in their new wind tunnel.
However, it is their 2025 car that will be fully developed (from the get-go) with their in-house wind tunnel.
Anyway, if the correlation is good, the wind tunnel is not a major limitation. RedBull is currently using an archaic tunnel compared to the competition, but clearly that's not holding them back.
For McLaren, the biggest benefit to having the wind tunnel at their factory comes in form of logistics. It's way less efficient to ship parts back and forth from Woking to Cologne, but of course, you can't mitigate the benefits of newer technology. For sure they are getting some benefit from the modern facilities.
You correlate your CFD with wind tunnel data, until you can get on track data.
If your wind tunnel is wrong, your code will be wrong as well.
I don't think the wind tunnel is ever wrong? It's the interpretation of the wind tunnel data by a human that is fed into the CFD that can be wrong.
McLaren developed the 2023 car (including the major upgrades later in the season) in the old Toyota wind tunnel. Even their 2024 car was conceived using the old tunnel, even though upgrades for this car will likely come from parts tested in their new wind tunnel.
However, it is their 2025 car that will be fully developed (from the get-go) with their in-house wind tunnel.
Anyway, if the correlation is good, the wind tunnel is not a major limitation. RedBull is currently using an archaic tunnel compared to the competition, but clearly that's not holding them back.
For McLaren, the biggest benefit to having the wind tunnel at their factory comes in form of logistics. It's way less efficient to ship parts back and forth from Woking to Cologne, but of course, you can't mitigate the benefits of newer technology. For sure they are getting some benefit from the modern facilities.
You correlate your CFD with wind tunnel data, until you can get on track data.
If your wind tunnel is wrong, your code will be wrong as well.
I don't think the wind tunnel is ever wrong? It's the interpretation of the wind tunnel data by a human that is fed into the CFD that can be wrong.
Seems like someone in the factory messed up the variables..
For us it's impossible to know what's wrong, as the engineers at AMR themselves don't know what's wrong.
ALO looked very restrained evon on thursday, talking about the updates in the media round, I guess he had a sense of foreboding.
As I already said, I believe that Krack will be gone soon. Stroll won't accept this sort of performance, neither will ALO behind closed doors.
I furthermore believe that we will see a much more relaxed and less passioned ALO in the next 6 months, knowing that he can't achieve a lot in the remaining season.
My first voice of concern was way before AMR23’s downturn and that was in form of one of the early statements that were made. One of the statement was they were surprised with how easy the initial gains were. I remember saying that concerns me because that seems like they fluked into it without having an understanding of it. Here we are.
