2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[Vanja #66]

I'd rather celebrate some wins first, and only then I'd dig to discover the root causes of success.

That's a textbook path to certain failure

[jambuka]

Most likely cold and rainy qualifying and race. There goes our tyre prep.

[scuderiabrandon]

The Ferrari has been insanely consistent on the tyres all season, for the pace to just fall off a cliff compared to Norris like this is completely out of character.

Again, the pace did not fall off a cliff. In fact, we were keeping pace with Verstappen just fine. The pace didn't drop at all.

We didn't get slower, the Mclaren simply got a chunk faster and we couldn't keep up.

We can play the 'what if' game all day, but it seems a lot more likely to me that the temperatures were fine after a lap and a half and the pace was simply what the car was gonna be doing anyways. We saw no dramatic improvement from Sainz in the same period, who made no such mistakes. All while Leclerc continued to be comfortably faster than Sainz.

This is why I advocate for using live timing data, whether it be through F1 site or Multiviewer. So many times I've landed in back and forths with people who only watch the main broadcast. To me the onboards are even more crucial, especially when we want to talk about strategic decisions. The main broadcast misses out on 95% of the information.

[Space-heat]

The Ferrari has been insanely consistent on the tyres all season, for the pace to just fall off a cliff compared to Norris like this is completely out of character.

Again, the pace did not fall off a cliff. In fact, we were keeping pace with Verstappen just fine. The pace didn't drop at all.

We didn't get slower, the Mclaren simply got a chunk faster and we couldn't keep up.

We can play the 'what if' game all day, but it seems a lot more likely to me that the temperatures were fine after a lap and a half and the pace was simply what the car was gonna be doing anyways. We saw no dramatic improvement from Sainz in the same period, who made no such mistakes. All while Leclerc continued to be comfortably faster than Sainz.

This is why I advocate for using live timing data, whether it be through F1 site or Multiviewer. So many times I've landed in back and forths with people who only watch the main broadcast. To me the onboards are even more crucial, especially when we want to talk about strategic decisions. The main broadcast misses out on 95% of the information.

This. Charles onboard and the AI transcription on multiviewer for Max, Carlos and Lando radio is a great combination during the race.

[bluechris]

Most likely cold and rainy qualifying and race. There goes our tyre prep.

That's not bad ... With this condition's the best will thrive.

[AmateurDriver]

I'd rather celebrate some wins first, and only then I'd dig to discover the root causes of success.

That's a textbook path to certain failure

Of course I was talking about the relationship with tifosi and communication attitude. Clearly, internally they have to understand first. I was saying that I'd like them to handover to tifosi wins first, and the narrative of success only at a later time. The opposite, I find it just irritating. And if at the design department of Ferrari they are "excited" when set to be third best for the fourth time in five years, well, in my humble opinion they'd rather work for Alpine than for Ferrari (with the given respect for Alpine).

[bananapeel23]

The Ferrari has been insanely consistent on the tyres all season, for the pace to just fall off a cliff compared to Norris like this is completely out of character.

Again, the pace did not fall off a cliff. In fact, we were keeping pace with Verstappen just fine. The pace didn't drop at all.

We didn't get slower, the Mclaren simply got a chunk faster and we couldn't keep up.

We can play the 'what if' game all day, but it seems a lot more likely to me that the temperatures were fine after a lap and a half and the pace was simply what the car was gonna be doing anyways. We saw no dramatic improvement from Sainz in the same period, who made no such mistakes. All while Leclerc continued to be comfortably faster than Sainz.

You're missing the point of my comment entirely.

The point is that even if the pace didn't worsen, it doesn't mean that the tyre temp statement is false. A sub-optimal temperature can still yield lap time improvement and consistent lap times over a stint due to fuel burnoff, but that doesn't mean the car wouldn't perform better if the tyres were perfect.

As the tread wears off across a stint, there is less rubber to absorb the energy. Essentially this means that you can't push as hard to warm the tyres during the end of a stint, because you overheat the tyre surface much more easily, since there simply isn't enough rubber to absorb all of the energy.

At some point it might just be worth accepting that your core temp is slightly too low, because pushing to bring it back up would cause the surface to overheat and lead to graining or blistering, which would cost you more race time overall. This would be made even worse if your car struggles to heat the tyres without pushing, especially if the track cools, meaning that you lose more of your precious tyre temperature to the road surface, forcing you to push even harder to bring the temp back up, leading to even more graining.

Your pace might be good, your lap times might keep improving and your deg may still remain fairly low. But fundamentally, you've still been forced to accept a compromise that might cost a tenth or two per lap compared to the reality where your tyre temp never dropped to begin with.

Again, I don't know if this is indeed the case with Leclerc, but as an explanation for the sudden change in relative pace compared to Norris, it does make quite a bit of sense and is certainly possible. His lap times remaining decent doesn't really disprove this theory, since we don't know how his pace would have been if he never went off. Like it is theoretically possible his pace would improve like Norris' did, it's possible it would have been roughly the same or maybe somewhere in between, we can't tell because we don't have access to the data.

If he lost pace because he went off, we could only really tell if we got access to the Ferrari data. For now we only have statements from people involved with Ferrari to use as reference, and they seem to say that him going off caused temperature issues. Since we can't conclusively disprove it, we should take their word for it, since it's the most authoritative source we have.

[Vanja #66]

Of course I was talking about the relationship with tifosi and communication attitude. Clearly, internally they have to understand first. I was saying that I'd like them to handover to tifosi wins first, and the narrative of success only at a later time. The opposite, I find it just irritating.

Literally no one is saying they are successful and happy with where they are

[AmateurDriver]

Of course I was talking about the relationship with tifosi and communication attitude. Clearly, internally they have to understand first. I was saying that I'd like them to handover to tifosi wins first, and the narrative of success only at a later time. The opposite, I find it just irritating.

Literally no one is saying they are successful and happy with where they are

As I added after re-editing the previous messages after you read it: if they are "excited" (as they claim) when set to end up being third best for the fourth time in five years, well, in my humble opinion they are much more suited to work for Alpine then for Ferrari (with due respect for Alpine). I hope (and believe) they are not that excited. So Ferrari please spare us that annoying narrative.

[Vanja #66]

As I added after re-editing the previous messages after you read it: if they are "excited" (as they claim) when set to end up being third best for the fourth time in five years, well, in my humble opinion they are much more suited to work for Alpine then for Ferrari (with the given respect for Alpine). I hope (and believe) they are not that excited. So Ferrari please spare us that annoying narrative.

I have no idea how you got there from Clear answering a question about Vasseur by saying the culture in the team is different and people are taking more risk and learning from it. Ever since Todt and Brawn left, this blame culture was brought back to Ferrari by Montezemolo and stayed there until Elkann understood that Vigna and Binotto are clueless about building a good team. A well known toxic trait that kept a lot of people out of Maranello, including Newey about 10 years ago.

[CouncilorIrissa]

Man, I've got to take lessons in cynicism to keep up with this thread.

[AmateurDriver]

As I added after re-editing the previous messages after you read it: if they are "excited" (as they claim) when set to end up being third best for the fourth time in five years, well, in my humble opinion they are much more suited to work for Alpine then for Ferrari (with the given respect for Alpine). I hope (and believe) they are not that excited. So Ferrari please spare us that annoying narrative.

I have no idea how you got there from Clear answering a question about Vasseur by saying the culture in the team is different and people are taking more risk and learning from it. Ever since Todt and Brawn left, this blame culture was brought back to Ferrari by Montezemolo and stayed there until Elkann understood that Vigna and Binotto are clueless about building a good team. A well known toxic trait that kept a lot of people out of Maranello, including Newey about 10 years ago.

I am just saying give us results first, then we will be delighted to hear journalists talking at length about the superbe managing skills of Fred Vasseur (to make things clear: a professionals I like and respect to a huge extent) and the blindingly brilliant ideas that led Ferrari to success. Bit give us wins first. We have had enough of declarations of intents.

[Vanja #66]

I am just saying give us results first, then we will be delighted to hear journalists talking at length about the superbe managing skills of Fred Vasseur (to make things clear: a professionals I like and respect to a huge extent) and the blindingly brilliant ideas that led Ferrari to success. Bit give us wins first. We have had enough of declarations of intents.

Actually there's both very good results, great consistency and execution and not just a win, but a 1-2 finish in Australia. Overall the best season since 2017 already and will end up better than 2017 overall, after an utter disaster of last year

[LM10]

As I added after re-editing the previous messages after you read it: if they are "excited" (as they claim) when set to end up being third best for the fourth time in five years, well, in my humble opinion they are much more suited to work for Alpine then for Ferrari (with the given respect for Alpine). I hope (and believe) they are not that excited. So Ferrari please spare us that annoying narrative.

I have no idea how you got there from Clear answering a question about Vasseur by saying the culture in the team is different and people are taking more risk and learning from it. Ever since Todt and Brawn left, this blame culture was brought back to Ferrari by Montezemolo and stayed there until Elkann understood that Vigna and Binotto are clueless about building a good team. A well known toxic trait that kept a lot of people out of Maranello, including Newey about 10 years ago.

By looking at AmateurDriver’s posts one can see where exactly the roots of the blame culture lie - it’s the Tifosi themselves. The pressure from outside (fans and media) which are really unique in case of Ferrari, is what is the starting point of a long chain consisting of blame, unrealistic goals, fast success no matter the cost and blame again. I really don’t know another team where it’s to this extent, not even close. I also don’t know another team thread turning into torture to read when Ferrari does not get a 1-2.

[CouncilorIrissa]

I also don’t know another team thread turning into torture to read when Ferrari does not get a 1-2.

Wait until you see the 2025 edition of this thread, this is going to be nuclear disaster levels of hysteria.