2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Emag]

Alright, I see. You both completely missed the point I made about Aston's wing. What you see "disappearing" are still just the front wing flaps. Particularly, only the top one for McLaren has significant movement. But it's also down to different front wing designs having different amount of loads on each flap, because only McLaren's top flap is fully visible during onboard videos, which is not the case for the others.

Anyway, this, as evident of the video I shared, is a phenomenon which has been present for a long time now, and it's also present on the RedBull front wing.

The up and down movement is NOT what was the problem with Aston last year.
An example of shape morphing would be a wing flap which flexes more on the middle than on the side under heavy load, which leads to an entirely different shape of that flap under load.

(Disclaimer : we don't know exactly what part of Aston's front wing was not in compliance, so the above is just an example).

If the entire assembly flexes the same amount, it would retain it's shape but squat under load, which is something all wings do, as previously stated.

[organic]

Alright, I see. You both completely missed the point I made about Aston's wing. What you see "disappearing" are still just the front wing flaps. Particularly, only the top one for McLaren has significant movement. But it's also down to different front wing designs having different amount of loads on each flap, because only McLaren's top flap is fully visible during onboard videos, which is not the case for the others.

Anyway, this, as evident of the video I shared, is a phenomenon which has been present for a long time now, and it's also present on the RedBull front wing.

The up and down movement is NOT what was the problem with Aston last year.
An example of shape morphing would be a wing flap which flexes more on the middle than on the side under heavy load, which leads to an entirely different shape of that flap.

If the entire assembly flexes the same amount, it would retain it's shape but squat under load, which is something all wings do, as previously stated.

And my point is that the 2024 front wings of McLaren and mercedes are bending significantly more than any 2023 wing except that of Aston martin launch spec. Sure we're looking at parts of the wing that don't necessarily imply a change of shape, but the sheer amount of flexibility: my question is how are they achieving this large amount of flex without running into issues with the test? And are these methods similar to what AMR were doing? As the end result looks from what we can see from the available angles similar.

[Emag]

Alright, I see. You both completely missed the point I made about Aston's wing. What you see "disappearing" are still just the front wing flaps. Particularly, only the top one for McLaren has significant movement. But it's also down to different front wing designs having different amount of loads on each flap, because only McLaren's top flap is fully visible during onboard videos, which is not the case for the others.

Anyway, this, as evident of the video I shared, is a phenomenon which has been present for a long time now, and it's also present on the RedBull front wing.

The up and down movement is NOT what was the problem with Aston last year.
An example of shape morphing would be a wing flap which flexes more on the middle than on the side under heavy load, which leads to an entirely different shape of that flap.

If the entire assembly flexes the same amount, it would retain it's shape but squat under load, which is something all wings do, as previously stated.

And my point is that the 2024 front wings of McLaren and mercedes are bending significantly more than any 2023 wing except that of Aston martin launch spec. Sure we're looking at parts of the wing that don't necessarily imply a change of shape, but the sheer amount of flexibility: my question is how are they achieving this large amount of flex without running into issues with the test? And are these methods similar to what AMR were doing? As the end result looks from what we can see from the available angles similar.

If the front wing is more loaded (i.e the flaps have a higher angle of attack), it will simply flex more because it will be under more pressure (more downforce).

McLaren, compared to the RedBull, has a pretty loaded front wing.

Nevertheless, the FIA had a look at the wings, and found no foul play :

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia- ... /10625891/

[organic]

Alright, I see. You both completely missed the point I made about Aston's wing. What you see "disappearing" are still just the front wing flaps. Particularly, only the top one for McLaren has significant movement. But it's also down to different front wing designs having different amount of loads on each flap, because only McLaren's top flap is fully visible during onboard videos, which is not the case for the others.

Anyway, this, as evident of the video I shared, is a phenomenon which has been present for a long time now, and it's also present on the RedBull front wing.

The up and down movement is NOT what was the problem with Aston last year.
An example of shape morphing would be a wing flap which flexes more on the middle than on the side under heavy load, which leads to an entirely different shape of that flap.

If the entire assembly flexes the same amount, it would retain it's shape but squat under load, which is something all wings do, as previously stated.

And my point is that the 2024 front wings of McLaren and mercedes are bending significantly more than any 2023 wing except that of Aston martin launch spec. Sure we're looking at parts of the wing that don't necessarily imply a change of shape, but the sheer amount of flexibility: my question is how are they achieving this large amount of flex without running into issues with the test? And are these methods similar to what AMR were doing? As the end result looks from what we can see from the available angles similar.

If the front wing is more loaded (i.e the flaps have a higher angle of attack), it will simply flex more because it will be under more pressure (more downforce).

McLaren, compared to the RedBull, has a pretty loaded front wing.

Nevertheless, the FIA had a look at the wings, and found no foul play :

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia- ... /10625891/

Yes I think everyone is well past the point of believing that the wings are illegal or should be outlawed/protested.

Perhaps I didn't portray the intentions of what I'm saying correctly

My post was not to say: look at red bull's regular law abiding wing, now look at these illegal wings of McLaren and mercedes - those wicked designers. I meant to try to illustrate how in 2023 something that was totally unheard of in terms of front wing flex is now common, and how red bull are far from extracting the most from this particular area

Consequently RB presumably have the scope to design a higher downforce front wing more along the lines of a McLaren that will flex legally and result in similar drag to that of the current spec. Should result in performance in low speed particularly, incidentally where they lost a huge chunk of time this weekend to McLaren as the rb20 remains understeery in these parts

It's certainly a grey area though, as even passing tests and being legal in every way except the spirit of the rules sometimes isn't enough to prevent something from being made illegal. See 2021 rear wing flex test change mid season

[Emag]

And my point is that the 2024 front wings of McLaren and mercedes are bending significantly more than any 2023 wing except that of Aston martin launch spec. Sure we're looking at parts of the wing that don't necessarily imply a change of shape, but the sheer amount of flexibility: my question is how are they achieving this large amount of flex without running into issues with the test? And are these methods similar to what AMR were doing? As the end result looks from what we can see from the available angles similar.

If the front wing is more loaded (i.e the flaps have a higher angle of attack), it will simply flex more because it will be under more pressure (more downforce).

McLaren, compared to the RedBull, has a pretty loaded front wing.

Nevertheless, the FIA had a look at the wings, and found no foul play :

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia- ... /10625891/

Yes I think everyone is well past the point of believing that the wings are illegal or should be outlawed/protested.

Perhaps I didn't portray the intentions of what I'm saying correctly

My post was not to say: look at red bull's regular law abiding wing, now look at these illegal wings of McLaren and mercedes - those wicked designers. I meant to try to illustrate how red bull are far from extracting the most from this particular area. And to show how in 2023 something that was totally unheard of in terms of front wing flex is now common

Presumably they have the scope to design a higher downforce front wing more along the lines of a McLaren that will flex legally and result in similar drag to that of the current spec. Should result in performance in low speed particularly, incidentally where they lost a huge chunk of time this weekend.

It's certainly a grey area though, as even passing tests and being legal in every way except the spirit of the rules sometimes isn't enough to prevent something from being made illegal

I don't think RedBull can just slap a higher load front wing and reap the benefits of the flex. They would have done it already, because it's hardly a difficult area to exploit.

But their front wing is part of how they have designed their car. Since 2022, RedBull has had noticeably lower loaded front wings compared to the competition. I wouldn't be surprised if the balance goes to sh*t if they slap a McLaren-like high load front wing in it.

My guess is that because of this, they started complaining to the FIA about the competitors flexing too much. Since it's not so easy to get it to work at the same effect on their car, it was worth a try getting it off their competitors.

It wouldn't be the first time a mid-season technical directive benefits RedBull.

[organic]

If the front wing is more loaded (i.e the flaps have a higher angle of attack), it will simply flex more because it will be under more pressure (more downforce).

McLaren, compared to the RedBull, has a pretty loaded front wing.

Nevertheless, the FIA had a look at the wings, and found no foul play :

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia- ... /10625891/

Yes I think everyone is well past the point of believing that the wings are illegal or should be outlawed/protested.

Perhaps I didn't portray the intentions of what I'm saying correctly

My post was not to say: look at red bull's regular law abiding wing, now look at these illegal wings of McLaren and mercedes - those wicked designers. I meant to try to illustrate how red bull are far from extracting the most from this particular area. And to show how in 2023 something that was totally unheard of in terms of front wing flex is now common

Presumably they have the scope to design a higher downforce front wing more along the lines of a McLaren that will flex legally and result in similar drag to that of the current spec. Should result in performance in low speed particularly, incidentally where they lost a huge chunk of time this weekend.

It's certainly a grey area though, as even passing tests and being legal in every way except the spirit of the rules sometimes isn't enough to prevent something from being made illegal

I don't think RedBull can just slap a higher load front wing and reap the benefits of the flex. They would have done it already, because it's hardly a difficult area to exploit.

But their front wing is part of how they have designed their car. Since 2022, RedBull has had noticeably lower loaded front wings compared to the competition. I wouldn't be surprised if the balance goes to sh*t if they slap a McLaren-like high load front wing in it.

My guess is that because of this, they started complaining to the FIA about the competitors flexing too much. Since it's not so easy to get it to work at the same effect on their car, it was worth a try getting it off their competitors.

It wouldn't be the first time a mid-season technical directive benefits RedBull.

If RB have made a nice balanced car without it and others have done the same using bendy front wings, then of course it makes sense for RB to try to get it outlawed. Saved the development time & budget, taken it away from everyone else, and now they have to seek alternative solutions. Alas it was not to be

That's my interpretation of why they'd seek to complain rather than build their own first, RB fan tinted glasses and all . Of course also I have my reservations about them being able to build such a front wing like McLaren, for this car but they can have their own interpretation

Naturally in this case a rule change wasn't going to fly as it would destroy competition of the season, regardless of any merits to the argument either way imo

[mwillems]

If the front wing is more loaded (i.e the flaps have a higher angle of attack), it will simply flex more because it will be under more pressure (more downforce).

McLaren, compared to the RedBull, has a pretty loaded front wing.

Nevertheless, the FIA had a look at the wings, and found no foul play :

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia- ... /10625891/

Yes I think everyone is well past the point of believing that the wings are illegal or should be outlawed/protested.

Perhaps I didn't portray the intentions of what I'm saying correctly

My post was not to say: look at red bull's regular law abiding wing, now look at these illegal wings of McLaren and mercedes - those wicked designers. I meant to try to illustrate how red bull are far from extracting the most from this particular area. And to show how in 2023 something that was totally unheard of in terms of front wing flex is now common

Presumably they have the scope to design a higher downforce front wing more along the lines of a McLaren that will flex legally and result in similar drag to that of the current spec. Should result in performance in low speed particularly, incidentally where they lost a huge chunk of time this weekend.

It's certainly a grey area though, as even passing tests and being legal in every way except the spirit of the rules sometimes isn't enough to prevent something from being made illegal

I don't think RedBull can just slap a higher load front wing and reap the benefits of the flex. They would have done it already, because it's hardly a difficult area to exploit.

But their front wing is part of how they have designed their car. Since 2022, RedBull has had noticeably lower loaded front wings compared to the competition. I wouldn't be surprised if the balance goes to sh*t if they slap a McLaren-like high load front wing in it.

My guess is that because of this, they started complaining to the FIA about the competitors flexing too much. Since it's not so easy to get it to work at the same effect on their car, it was worth a try getting it off their competitors.

It wouldn't be the first time a mid-season technical directive benefits RedBull.

I think they didn't because they didn't need to, or thought they didn't need to at the start of the season. It has now become apparent that they need to find time to maintain a constructors title charge.

Given that Red Bull had been planning to drop development of the 2025 car as early as possible and focus on the 2026 car from Jan onwards, it would make sense if the team are trying to find some of the low hanging fruit that might keep them ahead this year and it would have been better to pull others back and disrupt multiple teams designs than build a new wing themselves.

I don't think we can readily conclude that they can't find a way to flex a wing and get a gain, I think it is more likely that they just hadn't needed to until recently.

[Sergej]

Will Red Bull explore the possibility to introduce a flexy wing ? for sure

Will they be able to introduce their version in little time and without spoiling the balance of the car ? it has to be seen

Don't forget also that they have another big problem to solve which is kerb riding, which can give back a lot of laptime if solved, and with budget cap and all limitations they have it's not easy to tackle many and different problems at the same time; personally I am in the camp of those who thinks it won't be an easy task to introduce a flexy wing shortly, but let's see.

[Jurgen von Diaz]

Horner is pleased that Pérez got into Q3. So the team will settle for being satisfied with the other car in P8 while Max fights for the win. Now that dominance is over, it's quite hard to fight for the WCC if the other car is in the midfield, but this is what they asked for when they signed Pérez.

https://x.com/RBR_Daily/status/18045635 ... 76HdQ&s=19

[Dunlay]

Will Red Bull explore the possibility to introduce a flexy wing ? for sure

Will they be able to introduce their version in little time and without spoiling the balance of the car ? it has to be seen

Don't forget also that they have another big problem to solve which is kerb riding, which can give back a lot of laptime if solved, and with budget cap and all limitations they have it's not easy to tackle many and different problems at the same time; personally I am in the camp of those who thinks it won't be an easy task to introduce a flexy wing shortly, but let's see.

You are right. The airflow attachment/detachment affects the whole car downstream. It's probably easy to simply make the front wing flex, but managing downstream changes might be more complex. They are restricted by budget cap (also thanks to Perez) and the lesser aero time they get due to leading constructors championship.

[chrisc90]

If RB can make their less loaded front wing (compared to others) flex and be even less loaded it’s still a win all round isn’t it.

[bluechris]

If RB can make their less loaded front wing (compared to others) flex and be even less loaded it’s still a win all round isn’t it.

That's why Horner asked for clarification from FIA, they got it and now game on.

[Jdn1327]

If RB can make their less loaded front wing (compared to others) flex and be even less loaded it’s still a win all round isn’t it.

Would their aero load be improved with a flexi wing? Would it not affect the aero balance because the rest of the car is not designed to work with a flexi wing? Silly question

[Paa]

Horner is pleased that Pérez got into Q3. So the team will settle for being satisfied with the other car in P8 while Max fights for the win. Now that dominance is over, it's quite hard to fight for the WCC if the other car is in the midfield, but this is what they asked for when they signed Pérez.

https://x.com/RBR_Daily/status/18045635 ... 76HdQ&s=19

At this point I almost believe they want to fall back in WCC to gain more wind tunnel time.

[search]

Horner is pleased that Pérez got into Q3. So the team will settle for being satisfied with the other car in P8 while Max fights for the win. Now that dominance is over, it's quite hard to fight for the WCC if the other car is in the midfield, but this is what they asked for when they signed Pérez.

https://x.com/RBR_Daily/status/18045635 ... 76HdQ&s=19

On Friday, Marko also praised Perez' good performance in FP1, when he was "just 4 tenths slower than Verstappen". So yeah, it seems like him coming 8th fits their expectations.