Concept power units from 2030

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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mclaren111
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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CMSMJ1 wrote:
01 Jul 2024, 23:41
mclaren111 wrote:
30 Jun 2024, 12:55
mzso wrote:
29 Jun 2024, 13:11
People often claim to want a small and light engine. But they usually go to v8-v10 suggestions afteward, which doesn't make sense to me. The old turbos had the best power density in F1, didn't they? Some were only four cylinders and 1500cc.

Anyway what would be the best for lightest motors? I'm thinking something exotic. Recently I saw a mention of the "two stroke" LiquidPiston type motor.
I can't imagine anything more power dense than such an engine turbo charged with six combustion events in two rotations.

I remember the good old days of a V10 weighing 35kg and then the FIA mandated it to a minimum of 45kg and then kept increacing it from then on...
There's been a few posts calling this one out - I would also like to know where you recall this one from?

There was never, in my remembering, anything like an engine from 1996 onwards that was anywhere close to 35kg. I have a small 400cc V4 motorbie engine stashed in my container..it must weigh at least 55kg and there is nothing to it.

Be good to review this one - this is F1 Technical...after all :D

IIRC I read an article on F1's qualifying engines a while ago stating this. I am looking for it. Will advise if & when I find it... :D

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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mclaren111 wrote:
02 Jul 2024, 10:56
CMSMJ1 wrote:
01 Jul 2024, 23:41
mclaren111 wrote:
30 Jun 2024, 12:55



I remember the good old days of a V10 weighing 35kg and then the FIA mandated it to a minimum of 45kg and then kept increacing it from then on...
There's been a few posts calling this one out - I would also like to know where you recall this one from?

There was never, in my remembering, anything like an engine from 1996 onwards that was anywhere close to 35kg. I have a small 400cc V4 motorbie engine stashed in my container..it must weigh at least 55kg and there is nothing to it.

Be good to review this one - this is F1 Technical...after all :D

IIRC I read an article on F1's qualifying engines a while ago stating this. I am looking for it. Will advise if & when I find it... :D
The engines with hollow cranks, rods, metal matrix pistons, no cylinder liners, machined surfaces for weight reduction, other now banned alloys, etc were down to about 88-90kg.

You’re not going to more than half that.

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mclaren111
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Location: Shithole - South Africa

Re: Concept power units from 2030

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Hoffman900 wrote:
02 Jul 2024, 14:48
mclaren111 wrote:
02 Jul 2024, 10:56
CMSMJ1 wrote:
01 Jul 2024, 23:41


There's been a few posts calling this one out - I would also like to know where you recall this one from?

There was never, in my remembering, anything like an engine from 1996 onwards that was anywhere close to 35kg. I have a small 400cc V4 motorbie engine stashed in my container..it must weigh at least 55kg and there is nothing to it.

Be good to review this one - this is F1 Technical...after all :D

IIRC I read an article on F1's qualifying engines a while ago stating this. I am looking for it. Will advise if & when I find it... :D
The engines with hollow cranks, rods, metal matrix pistons, no cylinder liners, machined surfaces for weight reduction, other now banned alloys, etc were down to about 88-90kg.

You’re not going to more than half that.

Then I must have remembered incorrectly... #-o

Apologies...

DenBommer
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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I don't know if anyone here knows about future/concept technologies. But I often think that the heat from a combustion engine also has the potential to be converted into electricity.

Imagine a naturally aspirated V8 without batteries (or with very small ones) that uses its heat to also power the electric motor(s).

And the higher the RPM, the hotter it gets, and the hotter it gets, the more energy is generated...

mzso
mzso
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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DenBommer wrote:
04 Jul 2024, 09:02
I don't know if anyone here knows about future/concept technologies. But I often think that the heat from a combustion engine also has the potential to be converted into electricity.

Imagine a naturally aspirated V8 without batteries (or with very small ones) that uses its heat to also power the electric motor(s).

And the higher the RPM, the hotter it gets, and the hotter it gets, the more energy is generated...
That's is what the current PUs are about the. In particular the MGU-H. You can't just magically channel heat into electricity. And thermoelectric stuff is really inefficient and ineffective.
Not also running a turbo with the recovery turbine is just a waste.

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bananapeel23
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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DenBommer wrote:
04 Jul 2024, 09:02
I don't know if anyone here knows about future/concept technologies. But I often think that the heat from a combustion engine also has the potential to be converted into electricity.

Imagine a naturally aspirated V8 without batteries (or with very small ones) that uses its heat to also power the electric motor(s).

And the higher the RPM, the hotter it gets, and the hotter it gets, the more energy is generated...
You're essentially just describing the MGU-H. The energy (heat) recovered by the MGU-H (energy that would otherwise be sent out of thee turbo wastegate) is really the only sufficiently energized heat source to make recovery worthwhile. Even then an MGU-H is only really worth it in super niche cases where cars regularly run at high enough boost to actually need to vent significant amounts of energy out of the wastegate. This is why the only road car to have one (that isn't running an F1 engine) is a 911 derivative. Other cars just don't rev high enough to make it worth it.

The extra weight and complexity of the MGU-H makes it useful for F1, but for any other application the weight and complexity and cost just isn't worth it, and the MGU-H may well make the car less efficient becuase it would be harvesting so little when you only really run the engine at 1200-3000 RPM on the road with any regularity that the weight penalty would cancel out any combustion efficiency.

Now with your example where you don't have a turbo, you would have no obvious spinning parts to harvest energy out of, like a turbo turbine. What you would need to do in that case is either just add a turbine in the exhaust, or perhaps use the radiator heat to produce pressure and spin one.

The former is essentially just all the disadvantages of a turbo (weight, complexity) with none of the advantages (forced induction and the subsequent power feedback loop). Yes, you would get some energy out of it, but said energy would be much better used to spin up a turbo because the increased combustion efficiency leads to several times power gain for the same (or less) extra weight. Basically converting exhaust heat to electrical power isn't worth it without a turbo, because a turbo is SIGNIFICANTLY more efficient, lighter and less complex than a generator. The generator is only good as an alternative to a wastegate.

The latter option is just so insanely inefficient that it just wouldn't be worth it. Yes, you could harvest that energy to some extent, but the amount of heat you would be able to harvest would probably be a low single digit percentage of the heat the ICE generates that isn't exhaust. It just isn't worth it for any application that has the goal of moving and turning (a car).

Or are you describing something else? If you have no battery you can't recover the heat unless you want to run a bunch of water over the engine and run a tiny steam turbine (or something) for extra power?

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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whatever the turbocharger does it doesn't improve combustion efficiency
yes it may improve efficiency - or it may just improve power by multiplication of fuel flow and air flow

interestingly the 911 MGU-H is 11 kW (about 3% of ICE power)

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bananapeel23
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
04 Jul 2024, 13:56
whatever the turbocharger does it doesn't improve combustion efficiency
yes it may improve efficiency - or it may just improve power by multiplication of fuel & airflow

interestingly the 911 MGU-H is 11 kW (about 3% of ICE power)
I'm just sloppy with terminology, sorry.

DenBommer
DenBommer
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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bananapeel23 wrote:
04 Jul 2024, 13:38
DenBommer wrote:
04 Jul 2024, 09:02
I don't know if anyone here knows about future/concept technologies. But I often think that the heat from a combustion engine also has the potential to be converted into electricity.

Imagine a naturally aspirated V8 without batteries (or with very small ones) that uses its heat to also power the electric motor(s).

And the higher the RPM, the hotter it gets, and the hotter it gets, the more energy is generated...
You're essentially just describing the MGU-H. The energy (heat) recovered by the MGU-H (energy that would otherwise be sent out of thee turbo wastegate) is really the only sufficiently energized heat source to make recovery worthwhile. Even then an MGU-H is only really worth it in super niche cases where cars regularly run at high enough boost to actually need to vent significant amounts of energy out of the wastegate. This is why the only road car to have one (that isn't running an F1 engine) is a 911 derivative. Other cars just don't rev high enough to make it worth it.

The extra weight and complexity of the MGU-H makes it useful for F1, but for any other application the weight and complexity and cost just isn't worth it, and the MGU-H may well make the car less efficient becuase it would be harvesting so little when you only really run the engine at 1200-3000 RPM on the road with any regularity that the weight penalty would cancel out any combustion efficiency.

Now with your example where you don't have a turbo, you would have no obvious spinning parts to harvest energy out of, like a turbo turbine. What you would need to do in that case is either just add a turbine in the exhaust, or perhaps use the radiator heat to produce pressure and spin one.

The former is essentially just all the disadvantages of a turbo (weight, complexity) with none of the advantages (forced induction and the subsequent power feedback loop). Yes, you would get some energy out of it, but said energy would be much better used to spin up a turbo because the increased combustion efficiency leads to several times power gain for the same (or less) extra weight. Basically converting exhaust heat to electrical power isn't worth it without a turbo, because a turbo is SIGNIFICANTLY more efficient, lighter and less complex than a generator. The generator is only good as an alternative to a wastegate.

The latter option is just so insanely inefficient that it just wouldn't be worth it. Yes, you could harvest that energy to some extent, but the amount of heat you would be able to harvest would probably be a low single digit percentage of the heat the ICE generates that isn't exhaust. It just isn't worth it for any application that has the goal of moving and turning (a car).

Or are you describing something else? If you have no battery you can't recover the heat unless you want to run a bunch of water over the engine and run a tiny steam turbine (or something) for extra power?
No, I do think that you understand my description.

What I have in mind might be too much science fiction. I was wondering if there is some kind of nanotechnology that can directly convert heat into electricity to power electric motors.

Greg Locock
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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Yes there is, but it is useless in a racing context. BMW tried heat recovery from the exhaust via thermocouple effect.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showt ... p?t=579012

DenBommer
DenBommer
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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Greg Locock wrote:
04 Jul 2024, 23:35
Yes there is, but it is useless in a racing context. BMW tried heat recovery from the exhaust via thermocouple effect.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showt ... p?t=579012
Okay, now the more I think about it, the more I believe it might be best to keep things as simple as possible.

But completely switching to ICE isn't something I see happening today either.

DenBommer
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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What is your opinion on making F1 cars AWD?

Personally, I was thinking of an AWD boost, where drivers can make their cars AWD for certain periods per lap, but only like DRS when they are within one second.

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mclaren111
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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DenBommer wrote:
08 Jul 2024, 10:33
What is your opinion on making F1 cars AWD?

Personally, I was thinking of an AWD boost, where drivers can make their cars AWD for certain periods per lap, but only like DRS when they are within one second.

Wouldn't this add a lot of weight ? These cars weigh and look like tanks...

DenBommer
DenBommer
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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mclaren111 wrote:
08 Jul 2024, 11:36
DenBommer wrote:
08 Jul 2024, 10:33
What is your opinion on making F1 cars AWD?

Personally, I was thinking of an AWD boost, where drivers can make their cars AWD for certain periods per lap, but only like DRS when they are within one second.

Wouldn't this add a lot of weight ? These cars weigh and look like tanks...

https://www.wired.com/story/yasa-motors ... flux-2024/

Yasa Motors claims they can deliver 43 horsepower per kilogram.

Of course, every kilogram added to the front wheels is one too many.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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55 years ago I witnessed the unofficial AWD British Grand Prix
it started concurrently with the official GP but fell back
the winner had a secret - his car had 0%/100% torque split