Concept power units from 2030

[wuzak]

Gas turbine generators can have thermal efficiencies exceeding 40%, but these are the big turbines, producing tens of MWs - the Rolls-Royce Trent has an efficiency up to 42% and output of up to 66MW.

That is about 130 times the power needed for an F1 turbine/generator.

[Hoffman900]

Gas turbine generators can have thermal efficiencies exceeding 40%, but these are the big turbines, producing tens of MWs - the Rolls-Royce Trent has an efficiency up to 42% and output of up to 66MW.

That is about 130 times the power needed for an F1 turbine/generator.

Microturbines are around 30ish % +/- 5% or so, before any other recuperation.

Really no different than a good racing naturally aspirated, gasoline fueled piston engine.

If you compare the current F1 PU’s to say the Audi R4 TFSI engine (DTM), which is a 2L I4, spec turbo with 1/3 the boost of F1, much lower compression (11:1 to 18:1), otto cycle, DI (so no TJI), but fuel flow regulated and zero hybrid systems. All the extra stuff F1 has is worth 9% gain in thermal efficiency (42% vs 51% peak).

Also, remember the F1 value is quoted at its peak number. It’s going to be variable through the rev range, deployment, etc.

I would happen to guess it spends more time in the 40%s than not in actual racing conditions. I’m not even sure if that 50-51% isn’t a hero run on the dyno and not representative at all to how these PU’s are actually used on the track.

[Tommy Cookers]

Better still - if the F1 PU was installed in a "US semi truck" it would use even less fuel than the original diesel engine.

I doubt it. The regenerative battery charging depends on converting braking energy to electricity

the F1 50% or 52% BTE is nothing to do with regeneration

[Hoffman900]

Better still - if the F1 PU was installed in a "US semi truck" it would use even less fuel than the original diesel engine.

I doubt it. The regenerative battery charging depends on converting braking energy to electricity

the F1 52% BTE is nothing to do with regeneration

No, but as I pointed out, in what scenario do the PU’s actually see this in a race, and is this a “hero run” on the dyno for bragging rights?

[Tommy Cookers]

the biggest single part of the record % is the power recovery turbine (as invented by the NACA and Wright)
the so-called MGU-H is just a go-between

what's wrong is this Eurospeak English
recuperation
heat
physics teachers/preachers bending the story to fit the evidence (in someone else's invention)
recuperation is part of ICE's thermodynamic cycle - not related to the (external) load system as FIA terminology imagines

[wuzak]

I doubt it. The regenerative battery charging depends on converting braking energy to electricity

the F1 52% BTE is nothing to do with regeneration

No, but as I pointed out, in what scenario do the PU’s actually see this in a race, and is this a “hero run” on the dyno for bragging rights?

Since none of the manufacturers have given exact numbers, doubtful that these are "hero runs".

[wuzak]

If you compare the current F1 PU’s to say the Audi R4 TFSI engine (DTM), which is a 2L I4, spec turbo with 1/3 the boost of F1, much lower compression (11:1 to 18:1), otto cycle, DI (so no TJI), but fuel flow regulated and zero hybrid systems. All the extra stuff F1 has is worth 9% gain in thermal efficiency (42% vs 51% peak).

F1 has 5% more fuel flow for 28% more power (assuming DTM 42%, F1 51% TE, same fuel energy density).

[Hoffman900]

If you compare the current F1 PU’s to say the Audi R4 TFSI engine (DTM), which is a 2L I4, spec turbo with 1/3 the boost of F1, much lower compression (11:1 to 18:1), otto cycle, DI (so no TJI), but fuel flow regulated and zero hybrid systems. All the extra stuff F1 has is worth 9% gain in thermal efficiency (42% vs 51% peak).

F1 has 5% more fuel flow for 28% more power (assuming DTM 42%, F1 51% TE, same fuel energy density).

I doubt the fuel has the same energy density.

Honda reported performance enhancements of 10% came from fuel development alone (energy density, anti knock properties) from what they were using preciously.

The fuel is spec in DTM.

I don’t know the differences between the two as getting that level of information is impossible, but I have to imagine Honda’s base fuel prior to enhancements is about as good.

[Hoffman900]

the F1 52% BTE is nothing to do with regeneration

No, but as I pointed out, in what scenario do the PU’s actually see this in a race, and is this a “hero run” on the dyno for bragging rights?

Since none of the manufacturers have given exact numbers, doubtful that these are "hero runs".

I’m not sure. These PU’s have no real world value; they’ll never meet emissions, they’re way too unreliable for day to day driving, they’re way too expensive for a production car / manufacturer hoping to make a profit, etc.

They have to brag about something to make their shareholders happy. F1 isn’t charity. It’s a for profit showcase for the manufacturers, the rest of it is to sell sponsor space (who in turn want to sell you stuff). The hope is it’s engaging enough “omg 50% TE that’s so cool” that people still pay attention.

TE isn’t a steady state / constant figure. The fuel flow, the boost level, the throttle percent, and the hybrid contribution is all variable on a F1 car.

[wuzak]

I’m not sure. These PU’s have no real world value; they’ll never meet emissions, they’re way too unreliable for day to day driving, they’re way too expensive for a production car / manufacturer hoping to make a profit, etc.

No prototype racing engine has any "real world value".

They are made to win races.

Not many, if any, racing engines would pass emissions in their full racing form. They have to be modified and retuned to suit road car applications.

You have stated a need for entertainemnet. I guess you would prefer the V10s, which also lacked "real world value", were too expensive to make for production cars and would not pass emissions.

They have to brag about something to make their shareholders happy. F1 isn’t charity. It’s a for profit showcase for the manufacturers, the rest of it is to sell sponsor space (who in turn want to sell you stuff). The hope is it’s engaging enough “omg 50% TE that’s so cool” that people still pay attention.

If they do a "hero run" and claim 50% TE, but get a couple of percentage less TE in racing, and another manufacturer actually gets 50% TE the former will be beaten. Badly.

It is quite possible, even probable, that one or more of the manufacturers have exceeded that TE, but can't run it in that form because it is unreliable.

TE isn’t a steady state / constant figure. The fuel flow, the boost level, the throttle percent, and the hybrid contribution is all variable on a F1 car.

Yes, and the BMW DTM engine you used as an example would have as much, maybe even more, variability in its TE.

The quoted TE numbers are peak values, no one is denying that.

[Zynerji]

https://newatlas.com/deepdrive-dual-rot ... #gallery:1

[wuzak]

https://newatlas.com/deepdrive-dual-rot ... #gallery:1

"Is this radical two-rotor hub motor the secret to cheap 500-mile EVs?"

I would say no, since motors are not the limiting factor in range and possibly not for cost.

[Greg Locock]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridg ... _headlines

Betteridge's law of headlines is an adage that states: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no."

Calling it twin rotor is ridiculous.

Integrating the brake is an excellent idea, although it does raise heating issues - motors are held together with epoxy which doesn't like getting red hot, as brakes often do. However for commuter cars and the like it makes sense. Especially RWD as shown in the blurb, you can do any serious braking with the front wheels.

The advantage of getting rid of diffs (in particular) and half shafts is enormous. They sacrifice efficiency by going to radial flux for hand wavy reasons I can't remember, but they are probably more worried about the ratio of torque to diameter than efficiency. The magnets look tiny.

[DenBommer]

https://newatlas.com/deepdrive-dual-rot ... #gallery:1

I’ve seen it too. I think those engines weigh about 35 kg each?

But I do believe that if they were to use these in F1, they could reduce the weight by half. Just look at the weight of the brakes in current F1 cars. If I’m not mistaken, they weigh 2 kg? Compared to the brakes of a regular street car...

[Tommy Cookers]

the whole electrical side in F1 benefits greatly from the 8 speed gearbox
especially in recovery aka braking

throw that away for wheel 'motors' ?