Concept power units from 2030

[Tommy Cookers]

there is nothing that compels the situation to be as the RET advice claims

fundamentally motor torque is always proportionate to the conductor current
so it is always controlled by the F1 designer and rules not by RET
simply if said designer wanted he/she could command other torque/rpm behaviours

the implied immutable torque/rpm characteristic is merely what has been chosen in the settings of the so-called controller

the RET idea is in racing using EV-style fixed software-driven MG motoring behaviour
(ie 0%-n% rpm constant torque, n%-100% rpm constant power)

this can't be the ideal way round the track (in a strongly electric F1)
surely every part of the track and race will have its own best way of spending electrical energy
whether or not we have gears

[Rodak]

An interesting review of turbo-compound engines.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbMgwDIdScY

[Tommy Cookers]

yes but ....
the expansion ratio CR=6.7 of those engines was about 30% of F1's CR=18 expansion ratio
so there was far more waste power to be recovered

the 911 MGU-H turbo recovers about 3% of the ICE power

[saviour stivala]

The CR=6.7 of those engines (The Wright turbo compound). 6.7:1 Was the design selected compression ratio to optimize the engine performance according to the application and available fuel type.

[Hoffman900]

yes but ....
the expansion ratio CR=6.7 of those engines was about 30% of F1's CR=18 expansion ratio
so there was far more waste power to be recovered

the 911 MGU-H turbo recovers about 3% of the ICE power

Not entirely true. F1 engines are Miller Cycle and IVC occurs before BDC, so without knowing where IVC is, you can’t really make that distinction.

Not sure what your point is here continually bringing up 80yo NACA papers and 90yo designs.

[Hoffman900]

there is nothing that compels the situation to be as the RET advice claims

fundamentally motor torque is always proportionate to the conductor current
so it is always controlled by the F1 designer and rules not by RET
simply if said designer wanted he/she could command other torque/rpm behaviours

the implied immutable torque/rpm characteristic is merely what has been chosen in the settings of the so-called controller

the RET idea is in racing using EV-style fixed software-driven MG motoring behaviour
(ie 0%-n% rpm constant torque, n%-100% rpm constant power)

this can't be the ideal way round the track (in a strongly electric F1)
surely every part of the track and race will have its own best way of spending electrical energy
whether or not we have gears

RET was quoting a FE motor supplier.

F1 I literally linked two example: one a research paper from Ferrari another from Honda.

None of these examples can’t be any more direct.

[gruntguru]

yes but ....
the expansion ratio CR=6.7 of those engines was about 30% of F1's CR=18 expansion ratio
so there was far more waste power to be recovered

the 911 MGU-H turbo recovers about 3% of the ICE power

Not entirely true. F1 engines are Miller Cycle and IVC occurs before BDC, so without knowing where IVC is, you can’t really make that distinction.

Miller valve timing has no effect on expansion ratio.
.
.

Not sure what your point is here continually bringing up 80yo NACA papers and 90yo designs.

He is responding to @Rodak's immediately preceding post.

[Tommy Cookers]

the RET idea is in racing using EV-style fixed software-driven MG motoring behaviour
(ie 0%-n% rpm constant torque, n%-100% rpm constant power)

this can't be the ideal way round the track (in a strongly electric F1)
surely every part of the track and race will have its own best way of spending electrical energy
whether or not we have gears

RET was quoting a FE motor supplier.
F1 I literally linked two example: one a research paper from Ferrari another from Honda.
None of these examples can’t be any more direct.

clearly (I think) ....
the fastest way round the track is to run as long as possible at constant torque then go to zero torque (coast)
not less time at constant torque then time at reducing torque with speed (aka constant power) as per RET etc

[gruntguru]

TC when you say "constant torque" do you mean at the traction limit? Disregarding cornering this is undoubtedly true although in reality the traction limit increases considerably with velocity thanks to aero. . . and we are talking rear wheel torque of course.

[Chuckjr]

This must be why there is concern that the ICE will be at full revs around places like Lowes hairpin in Monaco — as ICE will mostly act as a recharge facility for the batteries so that constant torque is available from the motor to drive the rear wheels. Like a diesel train, essentially? Because it’s so efficient, and efficiency will win the race with the way they are going with power units in 2026. Hope that’s correct.

[gruntguru]

This must be why there is concern that the ICE will be at full revs around places like Lowes hairpin in Monaco — as ICE will mostly act as a recharge facility for the batteries so that constant torque is available from the motor to drive the rear wheels. Like a diesel train, essentially? Because it’s so efficient, and efficiency will win the race with the way they are going with power units in 2026. Hope that’s correct.

Best put silencers on them so we don't get to hear that sh1t.

[mzso]

This must be why there is concern that the ICE will be at full revs around places like Lowes hairpin in Monaco — as ICE will mostly act as a recharge facility for the batteries so that constant torque is available from the motor to drive the rear wheels. Like a diesel train, essentially? Because it’s so efficient, and efficiency will win the race with the way they are going with power units in 2026. Hope that’s correct.

Well, if they can rev the engine in neutral it's possible, I think. Otherwise I don't think such gearing exists to do full revs.

[saviour stivala]

This must be why there is concern that the ICE will be at full revs around places like Lowes hairpin in Monaco — as ICE will mostly act as a recharge facility for the batteries so that constant torque is available from the motor to drive the rear wheels. Like a diesel train, essentially? Because it’s so efficient, and efficiency will win the race with the way they are going with power units in 2026. Hope that’s correct.

Well, if they can rev the engine in neutral it's possible, I think. Otherwise I don't think such gearing exists to do full revs.

Isn't an engine capable to rev at full revs in all the gears, or better put, aren't all gear designed/calculated so as the engine can reach full revs in each one?.

[Tommy Cookers]

This must be why there is concern that the ICE will be at full revs around places like Lowes hairpin in Monaco — as ICE will mostly act as a recharge facility for the batteries so that constant torque is available from the motor to drive the rear wheels. Like a diesel train, essentially? Because it’s so efficient, and efficiency will win the race with the way they are going with power units in 2026. Hope that’s correct.

Well, if they can rev the engine in neutral it's possible, I think. Otherwise I don't think such gearing exists to do full revs.

Isn't an engine capable to rev at full revs in all the gears, or better put, aren't all gear designed/calculated so as the engine can reach full revs in each one?.

no .... not in 25 mph hairpins
first gear corresponds to peaking at about 100 mph

[Big Tea]

Some while back I had a Toyota that had an auxiliary shaft off the front of the engine driving "stuff".
Could it be possible to do something similar with CVT style traded off RPM|Torque to drive from any level and give the required speed at the generator?

Yes, over complicated and probably not practical in a race car unless it was way under start weight and in place of ballast