2024 F1 season - General Discussion

[catent]

Going to be interesting post summer break to see who gets the nerf.

RE: Redbull. First it was some magical suspension trick in Miami that hindered them, now its using the brakes to help turn the car in corners....

Neither of those theories are particularly outrageous, now are they? A racing team gaining a technical advantage via suspension/brake tricks? That sounds very much on-brand for F1 teams pushing the limit of technical engineering within a regulation set. Has (or will) Red Bull be affected? I don't know. I agree that their (relatively sudden) drop in performance, particularly as it relates to car balance, along with Verstappen's (as of recently) constant complaining about a weak front-end and poor turn-in/rotation, seem to raise some suspicions. The shoe certainly fits.

Then we have McLaren and Mercedes, both of whom saw a (relatively sudden) jump in performance. McLaren has been performing very well in low-speed corners and Mercedes seems to have found a silver-bullet for car balance; one will notice the front-end of the Mercedes has appeared extremely compliant and easy to rotate over the past several race weekends. The shoe certainly fits for those two teams, too.

We shall see. I am curious what impact this will have on the competitive order.

[AR3-GP]

Going to be interesting post summer break to see who gets the nerf.

RE: Redbull. First it was some magical suspension trick in Miami that hindered them, now its using the brakes to help turn the car in corners....

Neither of those theories are particularly outrageous, now are they? A racing team gaining a technical advantage via suspension/brake tricks? That sounds very much on-brand for F1 teams pushing the limit of technical engineering within a regulation set.

When it just looks like throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks, surely you have to take a step back and make sure you aren't being taken for a ride.

People are searching for ghost. Many simply don't believe how much Mclaren actually managed to improve. That is ironically grounds to actually suspect Mclaren of something... Mclaren was the only team that "caught" Red Bull in Miami and it still isn't all teams that caught Red Bull now. Perez finished 4th in Miami.

This shows that it wasn't Red Bull losing pace from their own car. It was other teams improving by differing amounts while Red Bull failed to improve. Mercedes resurgeance only came as a direct result of upgrades to front wing and suspension in Monaco and Montreal. They were nowhere near Red Bull in Miami, and Imola after Red Bull was allegedly nerfed. If Red Bull was nerfed, how come Mercedes was 30+ seconds behind them in Miami or Imola?

Ferrari hasn't really closed any gap to Red Bull either. They were still miles adrift of Red Bull in Spain and Austria, just as they were before Miami. On pace at Spa, they would been 20 seconds behind Mclaren and Red Bull if Leclerc started behind them.

Mclaren was 4-6 tenths behind Red Bull at the start of the season, then told us they brought a 6 tenths update that opened up their setup window. Do the math. In worst case scenario at a track where they would ordinarily be 6 tenths behind, the gap is zero. In best case scenario where they would have been 4 tenths behind pre-update, they now have 1-2 tenths to spare over Red Bull (Hungary, Spain). That's why they are ahead.

[cheeRS]

It's not about ultimate braking, it's about rotating the car. And if one were using the brakes for the latter, it might impact the former to a degree. And we know that Red Bull has gone from rotating like a top for Max to him complaining of understeer on several occasions.

Verstappen has been complaining about understeer in this new generation of ground effect cars since 2022. Especially in low speed corners with the Red Bull. It's one of many reasons why they were always weaker at low speed circuits than high speed circuits. This issue didn't suddenly appear this season. I watch a lot of his onboards. This car does not rotate as well as other cars. It never has. A car using this system wouldn't have this problem.

And everyone else has caught Red Bull but Red Bull have started to struggle. If the rule change affects the other teams and not Red Bull, that means Red Bull must have really messed up somewhere else. Which is, frankly, unlikely.

There are areas where Red Bull have been caught sleeping in these regulations. The first of those would be the flexing front wings. What you find "unlikely" has already been observed. Red Bull do miss things.

To me it doesn't seem like you are using any specific observation or fact to draw your conclusion about Red Bull. A sound argument would point to the fact that a car that was using this kind of system would have been strong in brake zones and slow corners especially, where ground effect cars are known to suffer from understeer. These two things have been Red Bull's main weaknesses since 2022. There strength was always high speed corners where there is no braking at all.

David Coutlhard talked about how a system like this worked in the article that I shared:

“We had to learn how to work with it, because you had to accelerate while you braked, otherwise you just locked the wheel. You could feel it was an advantage, because it yawed the car. So instead of riding over the front tyre, you could rotate the car without having to put steering lock on.

“And steering lock affects the aerodynamics quite a lot, so there was an advantage aerodynamically in having that. We could use it also to control a bit of wheel-spin on the inside wheel, coming out of tight corners. Independently Mika and I both worked that out. The theory had been proven in tanks and things like that, but actually doing it at speed out on the track was always going to be a bit different!”

Mclaren already ran this system in 97/98 which is a reasonable grounds for an unbiased person to suspect them. Furthermore, slow corners used to be the weakness of Mclaren. Now it is their strength. A possible clue? Certainly more reasonable conclusion than all of the evidence that doesn't support Red Bull being the problem. They are much stronger than Red Bull in slow corners which is exactly where braking would be observed and where this system would maximized, not the high speed corners where Red Bull is strongest.

When he said you needed to use the throttle while braking, the antennae on my head perked up because there's only 1 team in particular where I have seen this happening for a long time, and made several comments over the years about it. Ferrari. Both Leclerc and Sainz do this often. In contrast, Verstappen and Perez never blend throttle and brake in telemetry traces.

https://i.postimg.cc/BvktnxnR/image.png

Of course this is not conclusive proof that it is Ferrari, because they could also do this to change the differential behaviour, but certainly it is more reasonable to suspect a team whose data imitates prior descriptions of the system, than one whose car possesses none of the strengths that such a system would provide.


tldr, You would only suspect a team that was good in slow corners and braking of using this system. Red Bull is not good in any of those types of corners and has not been since 2022. Mclaren/Ferrari/Mercedes are the more likely suspects if you simply look at telemetry and strengths and weaknesses of the various cars. At the current time I can't identify a specific team, although I would like to note that Mclaren's sudden progress in low speed corners is curious. In prior seasons it was their weakness. Now it is their strength.

I completely agree with Just_a_fan in that it seems very plausible that this system was on the RB20. It does line up with the issues that Max has complained about and it's odd that RB have 'fallen back' so much.

That said, it would be wrong to no suspect it could have been another team that had made rapid progress this year. Maybe it was even the Merc nose bump/bubble upgrade that they brought around Austria. James Allison mentioned on BtG podcast that they finally found a balance between low speed and highspeed corners as respects car setup.

Further, I think we are assuming that this now-banned system works in the same way that MCL's third pedal system worked. It seems LIKELY that this system would help mainly with car rotation, but lets expand a bit to consider that this system does "something else".

Lastly, remember Max's brake disc exploding in Australia after a couple laps? Oddly, it was the rear right that failed and not one of the fronts as one would assume.

[Watto]

Going to be interesting post summer break to see who gets the nerf.

RE: Redbull. First it was some magical suspension trick in Miami that hindered them, now its using the brakes to help turn the car in corners....

Neither of those theories are particularly outrageous, now are they? A racing team gaining a technical advantage via suspension/brake tricks? That sounds very much on-brand for F1 teams pushing the limit of technical engineering within a regulation set. Has (or will) Red Bull be affected? I don't know. I agree that their (relatively sudden) drop in performance, particularly as it relates to car balance, along with Verstappen's (as of recently) constant complaining about a weak front-end and poor turn-in/rotation, seem to raise some suspicions. The shoe certainly fits.

Then we have McLaren and Mercedes, both of whom saw a (relatively sudden) jump in performance. McLaren has been performing very well in low-speed corners and Mercedes seems to have found a silver-bullet for car balance; one will notice the front-end of the Mercedes has appeared extremely compliant and easy to rotate over the past several race weekends. The shoe certainly fits for those two teams, too.

We shall see. I am curious what impact this will have on the competitive order.

It could easily be any team including RBR, though I am skeptical

But, I think who ever it was (assuming it is someone, Molly later said perhaps teams have been asking is this allowed and they just shut the door) Any team performing pushes technical regulations. Red Bull in the vettlel days with flexi wings and blown diffusers (the hot/cold etc) Merc with FRIC, brake magic, engine party move. Teams now again exploring flexible front wings. The talk of RBE with their suspension setup. Now this with brakes. Ferrari with their engine. Wouldn't be F1 if teams didn't go down the path.


Assuming it is some set to take effect post summer break it will be interesting to see who if anyone drops off the pace

[Watto]

It's not about ultimate braking, it's about rotating the car. And if one were using the brakes for the latter, it might impact the former to a degree. And we know that Red Bull has gone from rotating like a top for Max to him complaining of understeer on several occasions.

Verstappen has been complaining about understeer in this new generation of ground effect cars since 2022. Especially in low speed corners with the Red Bull. It's one of many reasons why they were always weaker at low speed circuits than high speed circuits. This issue didn't suddenly appear this season. I watch a lot of his onboards. This car does not rotate as well as other cars. It never has. A car using this system wouldn't have this problem.

And everyone else has caught Red Bull but Red Bull have started to struggle. If the rule change affects the other teams and not Red Bull, that means Red Bull must have really messed up somewhere else. Which is, frankly, unlikely.

There are areas where Red Bull have been caught sleeping in these regulations. The first of those would be the flexing front wings. What you find "unlikely" has already been observed. Red Bull do miss things.

To me it doesn't seem like you are using any specific observation or fact to draw your conclusion about Red Bull. A sound argument would point to the fact that a car that was using this kind of system would have been strong in brake zones and slow corners especially, where ground effect cars are known to suffer from understeer. These two things have been Red Bull's main weaknesses since 2022. There strength was always high speed corners where there is no braking at all.

David Coutlhard talked about how a system like this worked in the article that I shared:

“We had to learn how to work with it, because you had to accelerate while you braked, otherwise you just locked the wheel. You could feel it was an advantage, because it yawed the car. So instead of riding over the front tyre, you could rotate the car without having to put steering lock on.

“And steering lock affects the aerodynamics quite a lot, so there was an advantage aerodynamically in having that. We could use it also to control a bit of wheel-spin on the inside wheel, coming out of tight corners. Independently Mika and I both worked that out. The theory had been proven in tanks and things like that, but actually doing it at speed out on the track was always going to be a bit different!”

Mclaren already ran this system in 97/98 which is a reasonable grounds for an unbiased person to suspect them. Furthermore, slow corners used to be the weakness of Mclaren. Now it is their strength. A possible clue? Certainly more reasonable conclusion than all of the evidence that doesn't support Red Bull being the problem. They are much stronger than Red Bull in slow corners which is exactly where braking would be observed and where this system would maximized, not the high speed corners where Red Bull is strongest.

When he said you needed to use the throttle while braking, the antennae on my head perked up because there's only 1 team in particular where I have seen this happening for a long time, and made several comments over the years about it. Ferrari. Both Leclerc and Sainz do this often. In contrast, Verstappen and Perez never blend throttle and brake in telemetry traces.

https://i.postimg.cc/BvktnxnR/image.png

Of course this is not conclusive proof that it is Ferrari, because they could also do this to change the differential behaviour, but certainly it is more reasonable to suspect a team whose data imitates prior descriptions of the system, than one whose car possesses none of the strengths that such a system would provide.


tldr, You would only suspect a team that was good in slow corners and braking of using this system. Red Bull is not good in any of those types of corners and has not been since 2022. Mclaren/Ferrari/Mercedes are the more likely suspects if you simply look at telemetry and strengths and weaknesses of the various cars. At the current time I can't identify a specific team, although I would like to note that Mclaren's sudden progress in low speed corners is curious. In prior seasons it was their weakness. Now it is their strength.

I completely agree with Just_a_fan in that it seems very plausible that this system was on the RB20. It does line up with the issues that Max has complained about and it's odd that RB have 'fallen back' so much.

That said, it would be wrong to no suspect it could have been another team that had made rapid progress this year. Maybe it was even the Merc nose bump/bubble upgrade that they brought around Austria. James Allison mentioned on BtG podcast that they finally found a balance between low speed and highspeed corners as respects car setup.

Further, I think we are assuming that this now-banned system works in the same way that MCL's third pedal system worked. It seems LIKELY that this system would help mainly with car rotation, but lets expand a bit to consider that this system does "something else".

Lastly, remember Max's brake disc exploding in Australia after a couple laps? Oddly, it was the rear right that failed and not one of the fronts as one would assume.

Agree there is a lot that makes sense the core reason I doubt it is the timing of the rule being added. IF it was bought in 6 weeks ago or somthing then yep, I can see it being them. But 2 teams made huge progress through teh season it reads to me like something that will take effect post summer brake rather than something that has already happened the the RBR being told to remove something.

[Just_a_fan]

Agree there is a lot that makes sense the core reason I doubt it is the timing of the rule being added. IF it was bought in 6 weeks ago or somthing then yep, I can see it being them. But 2 teams made huge progress through teh season it reads to me like something that will take effect post summer brake rather than something that has already happened the the RBR being told to remove something.

It also appears to line up with Horner suddenly getting vocal about other teams' front wings. Perhaps a classic attempt to deflect?

[Watto]

Agree there is a lot that makes sense the core reason I doubt it is the timing of the rule being added. IF it was bought in 6 weeks ago or somthing then yep, I can see it being them. But 2 teams made huge progress through teh season it reads to me like something that will take effect post summer brake rather than something that has already happened the the RBR being told to remove something.

It also appears to line up with Horner suddenly getting vocal about other teams' front wings. Perhaps a classic attempt to deflect?

Its possible and wouldn't surprise me.

Just the timing of it feels like its something that has not been cut off yet. The rumored RBR take that off their car happened after Miami by the rumors iirc.

Perhaps behind the scenes the ban has come in for a while. RBR issues seems to have been around a very stiff suspention that can't ride the kerbs well does this breaking guideline really effect that. Can understand it effecting speed through a corner but the car clearly struggles with them compared to others.

Its also not like the car has become slower than last years RB19. Don't get me wrong either as I said what you speculate makes a lot of sense and I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if that was it - maybe something that supports that is this seemed to come out of no where was not a hint of it. Unless ( and I very much doubt it) the accusation by RBR over the uncovered holes in their break drums during races/

Maybe interesting to see if there is anything different after the summer break.

[chrisc90]

I guess there will be nothing to come of flexi wings? Given no wording changes? Unless covered already by a certain article or technical directive

[Sergej]

it could work both way:

-RB used this system, was caught in Miami and told to remove it, advantage gone; but then you have the question why to amend the rules only now ?
-McLaren and/or Mercedes implemented this system and made a huge jump, in last weeks they have been caught (remember RB clarification request about McLaren brake ?) and now rules are amended

I imagine after summer break we will have an answer (maybe)

[Watto]

I guess there will be nothing to come of flexi wings? Given no wording changes? Unless covered already by a certain article or technical directive

The cars were fitted with cameras and tracking dots last week to monitor flex . To perhaps they will monitor and see if something needs do be done?

[Big Tea]

If it Red Bull who are the culprits then I suspect some sort of debate over the legality has been taking place and they were told to remove it while the "discussion" continues, and just to make sure the clarification makes Shure the grey area is scrubbed.


(BTW, ~I am not stating it is RBR involved, just if, as the timings do seem strange)

[AR3-GP]

Was there not a thread opened on this topic? I cannot find it. What I want to point out are the diagrams drawn by Craigh Scarborough in the tweet at the bottom where he proposes how an asymmetric brake proportioning valve could have worked by inertia.



What I cannot understand is why this wouldn't be obvious in telemetry.

[AR3-GP]

The rear axle is the only place where you can harvest with the MGU-K. I was under the impression that braking on the rear axle was achieved first by maximizing the 120kw of harvesting, and then blending in the mechanical brakes with the brake by wire motors.

120kw is more than enough rear braking torque to lock the rear wheels at low speeds on corner entry. So to fully use this system to maintain a corner entry balance, you would have the tradeoff of not maximizing the amount of harvesting that could be done in the corner because the mechanical brakes are the only way to achieve the torque differential.

There should be more explanation in the Scarb photo. In practice it seems like the car needs to be tipped into the corner to get the mass to move while the driver is using the brake. Then the mass would close off the brake fluid circuit to the outside wheel and only allow the pressure in the circuit on the rear inside wheel to increase in pressure with the pedal. I don't think I understand how this works.

[AR3-GP]

I also think that there are tangential regulations which cover off not only the idea of an asymmetric braking system, but the specific sprung mass implementation that Scarbs drew in his tweet.

The first regulation simply forbids brake system modulation that is not achieved by physical input of the driver (brake pedal pressure) or the brake by wire (MGU-K harvesting vs mechanical). A valve that is dynamically modulating the left and right brake torques without a direct physical input of the driver is clearly a modulation that is not allowed.


The regulations also forbid any system that provide an anti-lock braking effect (You could argue that this is a side effect of any brake torque asymmetries which are intentional like reducing the brake torque on the outside wheel)




and finally, Scarbs specific implementation of the system would fall afoul of the mass damper ban:

[AR3-GP]

Another implementation using a pendulum:




https://www.thedrive.com/news/how-bmws- ... -in-racing