Braking regulation change - "asymmetric braking torques for a given axle is forbidden"

[SiLo]

As simple as that
Scarbs is just another BSer as many journalist "experts" and many people are buying their BS stories, unfortunately.
Also people do not want to understand that there is no silver bullet which can gain 0,5 sec alone, it is the symbiosis of the whole package.

Surely you could have the pressure bleed off the brakes unevenly with the valve Scarbs mentions? If one side is blocked and the driver lets off the pedal, the open side can bleed pressure whereas the closed side remains constant?

Or maybe my understanding of hydrodynamics is patchy...

This would be at least a thinkable approach, that there is a delay valve avoiding the drain. Something that happens even on road cars if the rubber in the brake hose expands, you can still brake by pushing the brake fluid through it, but the pads stay pressed to the disc and overheat.
Still, I see no control method to separate fast corners from slow corners which would have catastrophic result on the idea. And I do not really see how it delays in a on/off way that you would need to get a substantial effect from a F1 brake.

Still any valve would fall foul under the "old" brake and with inertia mass damper rules. Supposing it was on the RB and they would have found this valve in Canada, that would have been slam dunk DSQ to Perez and both RB cars in later races. No grey area possible as a valve changing the left right force on the brake was always and clearly forbidden.

But at least this idea would work with the brake fire theory...but not sure if it makes sense to work backwards from a possibly normal failure...

The cars being taken apart and checked by the FIA is good point, unless this part was taken off both cars before then.

[AR3-GP]

But at least this idea would work with the brake fire theory...but not sure if it makes sense to work backwards from a possibly normal failure...

There are many coincidental part failures in F1.

Mclaren (Norris) had a right rear brake meltdown in the 2019 Canadian GP. Williams had a similar single side failure at Imola in 2022. Ferrari in Bahrain this year experienced a 100 degree brake temperature separation issue.

It was impossible in the first 15 laps, the issue was getting a lot worse every lap," Leclerc said. "I was obviously basing my braking for Turn 9-10 with the previous lap, which obviously fell too late all the time, but the issue was getting a lot worse.

"Every time I would brake three meters earlier, but I would still look up, then at lap 15 or 20, the issue stabilised.

"The team told me on the radio that it was more than 100 degrees split between from front right and front left, which is huge.

The truth is that you can patch together a lot of circumstantial evidence to paint any picture. It's very easy to do. I could use this race in Bahrain to speculate.

1) How can you develop a 100 degree brake temperature imbalance between left and right front, on both cars, unless the brake forces are asymmetric? Did a valve "get stuck"?
2) Why does Leclerc keep around 10% throttle application in the low speed corners, when he is using the brakes? This is something that Coulthard said they were doing in 1997 with the Mclaren, to prevent wheel lockup when the "third brake" system was working.
3) Ferrari was better than anyone in the tight low speed corners since 2022. They won Monaco...
4) Ferrari also had a relative performance loss compared to Mclaren and Mercedes (just as Red Bull did).

I do not think Ferrari is guilty of anything (I have no way to know). I'm just showing how you can string unrelated events together to suit any narrative, when in fact the explanations for problems can belong to other factors entirely. Ferrari doesn't have a target on their backs, so you will never see their "evidence" strung together the way I have done.

[chrisc90]

But at least this idea would work with the brake fire theory...but not sure if it makes sense to work backwards from a possibly normal failure...

There are many coincidental part failures in F1.

Mclaren (Norris) had a right rear brake meltdown in the 2019 Canadian GP. Williams had a similar single side failure at Imola in 2022. Ferrari in Bahrain this year experienced a 100 degree brake temperature separation issue.

It was impossible in the first 15 laps, the issue was getting a lot worse every lap," Leclerc said. "I was obviously basing my braking for Turn 9-10 with the previous lap, which obviously fell too late all the time, but the issue was getting a lot worse.

"Every time I would brake three meters earlier, but I would still look up, then at lap 15 or 20, the issue stabilised.

"The team told me on the radio that it was more than 100 degrees split between from front right and front left, which is huge.

The truth is that you can patch together a lot of circumstantial evidence to paint any picture. It's very easy to do. I could use this race in Bahrain to speculate.

1) How can you develop a 100 degree brake temperature imbalance between left and right front, on both cars, unless the brake forces are asymmetric? Did a valve "get stuck"?
2) Why does Leclerc keep around 10% throttle application in the low speed corners, when he is using the brakes? This is something that Coulthard said they were doing in 1997 with the Mclaren, to prevent wheel lockup when the "third brake" system was working.
3) Ferrari was better than anyone in the tight low speed corners since 2022. They won Monaco...
4) Ferrari also had a relative performance loss compared to Mclaren and Mercedes (just as Red Bull did).

I do not think Ferrari is guilty of anything (I have no way to know). I'm just showing how you can string unrelated events together to suit any narrative, when in fact the explanations for problems can belong to other factors entirely. Ferrari doesn't have a target on their backs, so you will never see their "evidence" strung together the way I have done.

Well said.

Seems like 99.9% of people are jumping on the backs of Red Bull, based on an apparent drop off in performance. Yet as you outlined - there is a case(s) of the same issue happening on other teams aswell.

[Espresso]

Imho seems like RBR asked the FIA for some clarification if they are allowed to use asymmetric braking.
That’s the RBR way…and RBR doesn’t‘t mind getting in the News for that. It‘s free advertisement.
Now the loophole is closed…time to see which team will be affected!

[SiLo]

Imho seems like RBR asked the FIA for some clarification if they are allowed to use asymmetric braking.
That’s the RBR way…and RBR doesn’t‘t mind getting in the News for that. It‘s free advertisement.
Now the loophole is closed…time to see which team will be affected!

The rules are the last bit to get updated, so anything like this that was on any car would have been removed for quite a while. If it was on no car and someone asked for a clarification on it, then we wouldn't notice any discernible change.

[FW17]

https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/f1-i ... -anderson/

Good explanation

[SiLo]

https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/f1-i ... -anderson/

Good explanation

So this is exactly what I suggested a few posts ago. You effectively delay the pressure bleed off on one side to keep a brake locked more, and if this is the inside rear, it helps rotate the car.

[Vaexa]

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/what ... /10645992/

Ultimately the tweak alters very little when it comes to the legality of asymmetric brake systems. The changes made by the FIA to 11.1.2 of the technical regulations are supplemental to the original text, which only implies that the forces being applied to the brake pads are equal on either side of the calliper.

The new and additional text forbids the braking circuit, either front or rear, to be able to produce asymmetric braking torques.

It therefore prohibits what would more commonly be referred to as a brake steer system, whereby one wheel, usually the inside wheel, is braked with more bias than the outside, in order to help balance and steer the car.

However, according to FIA sources, the wording that was originally in place was already enough to make any asymmetric braking system illegal anyway.

The real motivation in changing the rules instead came from efforts to tidy up the regulations for 2026, and make it clearer in the next rules era what was and was not allowed.

As part of the ongoing discussions to frame the 2026 regulations, the same wording outlawing asymmetric brake systems completely was added in.

And, following a request from teams to ensure that nobody tried to exploit the tiniest of grey areas before then, it was requested that the new clause be added to both the 2024 and 2025 regulations.

Had there been any nefarious behaviour by a team in running a braking system that was against the original regulations, then throwing in a mid-season regulation change would not have been the first course of action.

Instead, the FIA would likely have issued a Technical Directive, which would have gone to all teams and alerted rivals to something being amiss elsewhere.

I'm sure we're still all going to try to convince ourselves we're smarter than an actually reputable outlet (that is to say, not Paolo Fisetti or Peter Windsor) and that this is an elaborate coverup anyway.

[chrisc90]

I dare bet there’s a few ‘experienced’ journalists (and some posters on forums) sitting with a bit of egg slapped on their faces now.

FIA confirmed no team was using such device

[PlatinumZealot]

I told you guys but you wouldn't listen!!

Leave the loop-hole finding to the veterans OK?


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/what ... /10645992/

[Watto]

I dare bet there’s a few ‘experienced’ journalists (and some posters on forums) sitting with a bit of egg slapped on their faces now.

FIA confirmed no team was using such device

That pretty much puts it all to rest then.
I think what was said, not sure if in this thread or elsewhere on this site. That there was no whisper of someone really doing this before the rule change made it see unusual. Normally there is plenty of chatter about teams bending a certain rule. Where I don't think there was really anything on this until after the announced rule change

[Vaexa]

I dare bet there’s a few ‘experienced’ journalists (and some posters on forums) sitting with a bit of egg slapped on their faces now.

FIA confirmed no team was using such device

That pretty much puts it all to rest then.
I think what was said, not sure if in this thread or elsewhere on this site. That there was no whisper of someone really doing this before the rule change made it see unusual. Normally there is plenty of chatter about teams bending a certain rule. Where I don't think there was really anything on this until after the announced rule change

If there was ever anything to this story, an actually reputable outlet would have reported it. Formu1a.uno and AMuS were on the wires pretty frequently when TD039 went down.

This was just two sketchy journalists looking for a story to drive engagement. Nothing more, nothing less.

[SiLo]

So over the space of a few races, Mclaren and Mercedes found bucket loads of pace, and Red Bull went backwards with it's own updates... what a timeline!

[Watto]

I dare bet there’s a few ‘experienced’ journalists (and some posters on forums) sitting with a bit of egg slapped on their faces now.

FIA confirmed no team was using such device

That pretty much puts it all to rest then.
I think what was said, not sure if in this thread or elsewhere on this site. That there was no whisper of someone really doing this before the rule change made it see unusual. Normally there is plenty of chatter about teams bending a certain rule. Where I don't think there was really anything on this until after the announced rule change

If there was ever anything to this story, an actually reputable outlet would have reported it. Formu1a.uno and AMuS were on the wires pretty frequently when TD039 went down.

This was just two sketchy journalists looking for a story to drive engagement. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think what we see too with it working in reverse you can find ways to accuse almost any team if you want to be selective about it. Even with the RBR stuff. Its not that they were slower than they were last year. They are faster just other teams made more progress. And as Marko has said recently seems some miss steps in their development path didn't go to plan

[Dunlay]

I dare bet there’s a few ‘experienced’ journalists (and some posters on forums) sitting with a bit of egg slapped on their faces now.

FIA confirmed no team was using such device

Did FIA confirm what was the problem with Ferrari in 2019? Do we know when was the last time FIA confirmed about the illegality that a team has been up to? Whether it was Mercedes oil burning, Ferrari manipulating fuel flow or flexi wings or flexi floors, FIA never came out and said a team did that. I don't expect them to say who was using asymmetric braking in this case either.