2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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The long run to T1 at Monza will not suit the McLaren's and Norris. Hopefully that plays into rb's hands

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Sergej
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Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Monza could be less favourable for McLaren, problem is that Ferrari will be super strong there, they will throw everything and go banzai with the engine just to save the season with a home win; it will be a difficult race to win for Max.

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Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Sergej wrote:
25 Aug 2024, 20:10
Monza could be less favourable for McLaren, problem is that Ferrari will be super strong there, they will throw everything and go banzai with the engine just to save the season with a home win; it will be a difficult race to win for Max.
Ferrari could be strong there, and just become an obstacle for Red Bull, not Mclaren. A car that could have won by 40 seconds today isn't being challenged in Monza. They have margin for their unfavorable tracks, just as Red Bull had last year.

After last year, Max is not finishing P2 in Singapore either...
Last edited by AR3-GP on 25 Aug 2024, 20:20, edited 2 times in total.
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Wouter
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Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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This is from an hour ago. You need a subscription to be able to read it.
https://www.telegraaf.nl/sport/20246459 ... ier-lastig

Translated:

Alarm bells are ringing at Red Bull: ‘Even Max Verstappen’s title is becoming difficult in this way’

By Erik van Haren

ZANDVOORT - The very last lap of the Dutch Grand Prix, Sunday afternoon just after half past four, told the whole story. Winner Lando Norris drove the fastest lap of the day in Verstappen-like style in extremis. Meanwhile, alarm bells are ringing at Red Bull Racing. In fact, what Max Verstappen has been warning about for ages happened in Zandvoort.

Perhaps Red Bull’s biggest critic walks through the paddock at Circuit Zandvoort with an orange cape and a smile from ear to ear. McLaren CEO Zak Brown sees that his team has come out of the summer break excellently. New parts – upgrades – that do their job and a very dominant Lando Norris, who crossed the finish line a good 22 seconds ahead of Max Verstappen.

It is a dominant victory like Red Bull achieved so many last year, and even at the start of this season. Now it's alarm phase one. Verstappen has been complaining for months about a lack of balance in his RB20 and McLaren has also been doing better in terms of tyre wear for a long time.

The Dutchman is even driving in Zandvoort with the same floor as at the very beginning of this year, albeit newly manufactured. "Maybe I shouldn't say it, but I'm doing it anyway...", sighs father and former Formula 1 driver Jos Verstappen in the paddock. "The fact that you have to go back to the car from the beginning of this year says enough. They just don't have it right here at the moment. I think they should take a good look in the mirror here."

Verstappen senior sincerely hopes that it will happen, but at the same time adds that he is 'only' the father and that it is up to the bright minds in the team to solve the problem. Red Bull's top advisor Helmut Marko agrees with him: "Yes, we really have to look in the mirror," says the Austrian. "We didn't expect such a big gap as today. The set-up of Max's car wasn't optimal either. Teammate Sergio Pérez (eventually sixth, ed.) was faster after the pit stop. We need to analyse where it went wrong."

The optimist will say that Verstappen is still seventy points ahead, with nine Grand Prix to go and three sprint races. But on Thursday, the three-time world champion already said that he is not counting his chickens before they hatch and that in a mechanical sport a retirement is always lurking. Marko also acknowledges that both championships, both individually and among the constructors, are at stake. And father Jos says: "Max knew this was coming. He simply had no chance here. This way, it will be really difficult for the rest of this year. Max is doing everything he can, but doesn't have the material to finish it off. It was already exceptional that he qualified second." Right after the start, Verstappen even catches Norris, which means that the 100,000-plus fans in the stands in Zandvoort can still hope for a fourth Dutch victory in a row. After his British colleague overtook him on the eighteenth lap, Verstappen can no longer hold on.

The driver himself remains calm to the outside world, but you can count on harsh words being spoken internally. His engineers also know how frustrating it is for Verstappen that the real solution cannot be found. "There is something wrong with the car and we have to improve that," says Verstappen. "We have to figure out the balance problems towards next week in Monza. There is no panic, but it has to improve. It is a complicated sport. This was simply a bad weekend for us."
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Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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I think people can't fathom what is right in front of them. It helps if you take any previous season that was close at the end, and re-order the races to flatter the points of 1 driver at the halfway point.

If you take all of the GPs where Hamilton won in 2021 and move them to the first part of the year, Hamilton would have had a commanding lead heading into the summer break and people would simply say there is no way he can lose...but Max's wins didn't happen yet so Hamilton's lead would be irrelevant. If you do the same for Max, Max is the one with the commanding lead heading into the summer break in 2021, but again, it's irrelevant because Silverstone and Hungary would have happened in the second half of the year....That's how meaningless the current points standings are.

A 69 point lead doesn't have any meaning whatsoever. The championship is only decided when all of the races are run. Mclaren can still win it from here, because the car performance meaningfully favors them. They could have won by 40+ seconds today if Norris was actually pushing.
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Vanja #66
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Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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With respect to McLaren and Lando, he's shown he has much to learn about maximising his weekends. Since Monaco he could/should have won in Canada, Spain, Austria, Silverstone and Hungary and should have been much higher up than he was in Spa. In all that time, both McLaren's were running perfectly, no reliability issues in sight and team didn't really make any strategy errors with him. Their worst weekend was Bahrain and it remains an inexplicable race.

Ferrari had a perfect storm hit both drivers in Canada, Max lost 18p in Australia, Mercedes had several technical issues after they introduced their flappy wing, redesigned floor and new front suspension. McLaren and Norris (in particular) are yet to face a problem that wasn't caused by the driver. Things like this always even out over a season and Norris isn't psychologically prepared to win 10 races in a row in order to beat Verstappen. Next time they are in a fight for any place, Max will not hesitate to go for the jugular and throw Lando off again. He's been doing an amazing job since Miami and such an effort won't go to waste.
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Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Vanja #66 wrote:
25 Aug 2024, 20:28
With respect to McLaren and Lando, he's shown he has much to learn about maximising his weekends. Since Monaco he could/should have won in Canada, Spain, Austria, Silverstone and Hungary and should have been much higher up than he was in Spa. In all that time, both McLaren's were running perfectly, no reliability issues in sight and team didn't really make any strategy errors with him. Their worst weekend was Bahrain and it remains an inexplicable race.

Ferrari had a perfect storm hit both drivers in Canada, Max lost 18p in Australia, Mercedes had several technical issues after they introduced their flappy wing, redesigned floor and new front suspension. McLaren and Norris (in particular) are yet to face a problem that wasn't caused by the driver. Things like this always even out over a season and Norris isn't psychologically prepared to win 10 races in a row in order to beat Verstappen. Next time they are in a fight for any place, Max will not hesitate to go for the jugular and throw Lando off again. He's been doing an amazing job since Miami and such an effort won't go to waste.
Mclaren's advantage at the moment is so big that Lando doesn't have to lead the first corner. Singapore will be the only track left where it is challenging to overtake. The rest of the circuits are DRS fest and long straights.
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Sergej
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Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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well, situation is not bright at the moment, but let's not dramatize either, it is not written that McLaren will have as dominant performances as today in the future as well; for what we know, it also could be that Zandvoort was one of their best track (and worst for RB); you should have learnt that this championship is full of performance swing.

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Vanja #66
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Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
25 Aug 2024, 20:31
Mclaren's advantage at the moment is so big that Lando doesn't have to lead the first corner. Singapore will be the only track left where it is challenging to overtake. The rest of the circuits are DRS fest and long straights.
I said "Sky is blue" and you reply with "There's no salt in sea" With a clean race, Max will finish ahead of McLaren's in Monza, McLaren still carries a bit more drag than RB and Ferrari
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Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Sergej wrote:
25 Aug 2024, 20:41
well, situation is not bright at the moment, but let's not dramatize either, it is not written that McLaren will have as dominant performances as today in the future as well; for what we know, it also could be that Zandvoort was one of their best track (and worst for RB); you should have learnt that this championship is full of performance swing.
Hungary, Spa, Zandvoort. There is a trend. The only reason that Mclaren couldn't show their pace in Spa was because it was difficult to overtake. We can't keep saying that it was Mclaren's best track. Mclaren also upgraded their car and will have more in Monza.

@Vanja, Red Bull won in Monza with more drag (with Vettel and in 2022/2023). Monza can be won with tire deg, as we saw last year. Any car that can win 40 seconds isn't going to have a problem winning their "unfavored" tracks. It is just as we saw with Red Bull last year.
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Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
25 Aug 2024, 20:55
Sergej wrote:
25 Aug 2024, 20:41
well, situation is not bright at the moment, but let's not dramatize either, it is not written that McLaren will have as dominant performances as today in the future as well; for what we know, it also could be that Zandvoort was one of their best track (and worst for RB); you should have learnt that this championship is full of performance swing.
Hungary, Spa, Zandvoort. There is a trend. The only reason that Mclaren couldn't show their pace in Spa was because it was difficult to overtake. We can't keep saying that it was Mclaren's best track. Mclaren also upgraded their car and will have more in Monza.

@Vanja, Red Bull won in Monza with more drag (with Vettel and in 2022/2023). Monza can be won with tire deg, as we saw last year. Any car that can win 40 seconds isn't going to have a problem winning their "unfavored" tracks. It is just as we saw with Red Bull last year.
one thing is to say that there is a trend which sees McLaren being the fastest (which is quite obvious), a completely different thing is that they can win every race by 40s like today.

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Vanja #66
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Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
25 Aug 2024, 20:55
@Vanja, Red Bull won in Monza with more drag (with Vettel and in 2022/2023). Monza can be won with tire deg, as we saw last year. Any car that can win 40 seconds isn't going to have a problem winning their "unfavored" tracks. It is just as we saw with Red Bull last year.
Bigger rear wing (thus higher overall wing level) for better cornering and chassis drag are two different things, we had this conversation already. Contrary, McLaren had as skinny a rear wing as Ferrari last year and was still down 10kmh on straights. Their performance heavily depends on massive front wing frontal area and this hurt them in Monza.
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Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Vanja #66 wrote:
25 Aug 2024, 21:11
AR3-GP wrote:
25 Aug 2024, 20:55
@Vanja, Red Bull won in Monza with more drag (with Vettel and in 2022/2023). Monza can be won with tire deg, as we saw last year. Any car that can win 40 seconds isn't going to have a problem winning their "unfavored" tracks. It is just as we saw with Red Bull last year.
Bigger rear wing (thus higher overall wing level) for better cornering and chassis drag are two different things, we had this conversation already. Contrary, McLaren had as skinny a rear wing as Ferrari last year and was still down 10kmh on straights. Their performance heavily depends on massive front wing frontal area and this hurt them in Monza.
I look forward to reviewing these claims after the race.
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Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Vanja #66 wrote:
25 Aug 2024, 20:28
With respect to McLaren and Lando, he's shown he has much to learn about maximising his weekends. Since Monaco he could/should have won in Canada, Spain, Austria, Silverstone and Hungary and should have been much higher up than he was in Spa. In all that time, both McLaren's were running perfectly, no reliability issues in sight and team didn't really make any strategy errors with him.
People keep referring to this, but you have to realize that situation is changing.
Few months ago McLaren maybe had 1-2 tenths of advantage of race pace, while not being fastest in qualy so it was much more difficult for them to maximize the weekend.
Now they seem to be fastest in qualy and easily have 0.3-0.5s race pace advantage. It is much - much easier to maximize weekends with this kind of advantage. Even if they make lazy/conservative strategic decisions, they can just drive around the issues, like Mercedes did in 2014-2020.
Referring to the early summer races is not a good analogue.

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Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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I don't think McLaren will continue to enjoy this sort of gap on other tracks, but I also think they will remain competitive just on the basis of how they have been performing since Miami. There hasn't really been any track type where McLaren hasn't at least been in contention for the win, if not outright the quickest.

I don't think a fair comparison with 2023 can be made. The 2023 car had inherent mechanical weaknesses which were quite severe. Those weaknesses were somehow balanced out by the car being "overpowered" on high-speed corners. The car this year is much more balanced, and although they have lost the high-speed lead, they're pretty much top of the class on most other corner types. Last year, the Monza low DF package was somewhat rushed and they didn't even have a proper low DF setup for Spa ready to better optimize a low DF setup. Not to mention the inherent drag problem the 2023 car had.

This year, with a relatively low DF configuration at Spa, they did rather well.

Remains to be seen how they will perform on an even lower DF configuration, but I doubt the deficit will be as big as it was last year. Besides, even last year, the car was half-decent considering the limitations. It's just that their straight line speed was so poor, they were stuck behind Albon the whole race.