2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Henri]

https://x.com/FDataAnalysis/status/1832762998487744759? Mercedes needs to improve qualifying the gap is massive

[PlatinumZealot]

Can't compare the two scenarios. In this vibration problem the input forces from the road would be different. Different applitudes and frequencies. So the wing flaps will aslo vibrate differently.

I'm not an aerodynamicist so I cannot say if the ripples in the front wimg wake does less damage to the performance of the floor at higher or lower frequncies? But that would be a good basis to start the conversation on wing flutter.

It's very comparable, as no other wing displays such properties anywhere and Merc wing has shown to be extremely flexible at Spa and now we have very similar flutter footage at Zandvoort at Monza - different tracks, surfaces, and wing levels.

Higher frequency would mean greater amount of turbulence "released" in a unit of time. Additionally, a more flexible wing would dampen those vibrations slower based on everything we know, while a stiffer wing would generate lower frequency when disturbed and dissipate osciallations much quicker.

Ok. I am mechanical. And i can say the stiffer wing would have a higher frequency but lower amplitude. The dampening has little to do with the stiffness if the wing has supporting parts or layers dedicated to damping. This would be whatever the engineers want it to be. (in how many oscillations does the amplitude reduce by a given amount).

I dont think you can use two tracks to compare this because the input forces would be different unless the engineers purposely tuned the tyre pressures and suspension to make the input forces as similar as possible to another track. But it is easier to avoid this and use two cars to compare.

[Vanja #66]

Ok. I am mechanical. And i can say the stiffer wing would have a higher frequency but lower amplitude. The dampening has little to do with the stiffness if the wing has supporting parts or layers dedicated to damping. This would be whatever the engineers want it to be. (in how many oscillations does the amplitude reduce by a given amount).

This is for a typical spring system in a constant oscilatory mode, that's not what we are talking about. These flaps shouldn't even start to oscillate unless the car goes over a serrated kerb. You can clearly see how the wing flexes and flutters all the time on Zandvoort footage.

I dont think you can use two tracks to compare this because the input forces would be different unless the engineers purposely tuned the tyre pressures and suspension to make the input forces as similar as possible to another track. But it is easier to avoid this and use two cars to compare.

We don't have 2 cases, we have 3. Austria with the "Monaco" wing spec and Zandvoort and Monza with "Spa" wing spec, using different size flaps too. Monaco spec exhibits flutter only over kerbs, while Spa spec exhibits flutter all the time over entire lap. You can find Monza footage here

We were having a discussion about whether or not there is intent in the fluttering of the Mercedes front wing. The footage from Monza shows that the Mercedes front wing flutters much more than others even in the normal aero conditions and in the absence of curb strikes:




So this isn't something that's just because a curb was struck harder than other cars in the footage. The Mercedes wing just flutters more. That is the way it is designed.

[PlatinumZealot]

Ok. I am mechanical. And i can say the stiffer wing would have a higher frequency but lower amplitude. The dampening has little to do with the stiffness if the wing has supporting parts or layers dedicated to damping. This would be whatever the engineers want it to be. (in how many oscillations does the amplitude reduce by a given amount).

This is for a typical spring system in a constant oscilatory mode, that's not what we are talking about. These flaps shouldn't even start to oscillate unless the car goes over a serrated kerb. You can clearly see how the wing flexes and flutters all the time on Zandvoort footage.

I dont think you can use two tracks to compare this because the input forces would be different unless the engineers purposely tuned the tyre pressures and suspension to make the input forces as similar as possible to another track. But it is easier to avoid this and use two cars to compare.

We don't have 2 cases, we have 3. Austria with the "Monaco" wing spec and Zandvoort and Monza with "Spa" wing spec, using different size flaps too. Monaco spec exhibits flutter only over kerbs, while Spa spec exhibits flutter all the time over entire lap. You can find Monza footage here

We were having a discussion about whether or not there is intent in the fluttering of the Mercedes front wing. The footage from Monza shows that the Mercedes front wing flutters much more than others even in the normal aero conditions and in the absence of curb strikes:




So this isn't something that's just because a curb was struck harder than other cars in the footage. The Mercedes wing just flutters more. That is the way it is designed.

The flaps will still oscilate without the car going over a curb. You should know this as aero guy! Curbs were never part of my argument.

It's the vortex shedding alternately over the wing. The von karman effect. However. The inputs from the road still make a difference as it is still a vibrating system.

As my original point was, someone would have to demonstrate how the flow of these vorticles at different frequncies affect the floor.

It might not even be a good idea to dampen the system if there is a benefit. Need to know if these "streets of vortices" are benficial to the floor or some other thing on the car.

[Vanja #66]

The flaps will still oscilate without the car going over a curb. You should know this as aero guy! Curbs were never part of my argument.

It's the vortex shedding alternately over the wing. The von karman effect. However. The inputs from the road still make a difference as it is still a vibrating system.

I have no idea what makes you think a front wing should shed a vortex street in any condition. That's turbulent wake, just a bit less chaotic. You might as well replace the wing with an air dam

Latest W15 front flaps are fluttering by definition of aeroelastic flutter - aerodynamic force causes flap twisting around the anchor point, changing their angle, which leads to reduced load and thus the elastic anchor point (the top wing skin on the 2nd element) pulls the flaps back. Just like wings and tails on an aircraft of bad design

As my original point was, someone would have to demonstrate how the flow of these vorticles at different frequncies affect the floor.

It might not even be a good idea to dampen the system if there is a benefit. Need to know if these "streets of vortices" are benficial to the floor or some other thing on the car.

If this happened, you'd have turbulent wake entring the floor and messing up its flow completely. This is why it's not a desired effect, it would make turbulence entering the diffuser look like a non-issue in comparison

[PlatinumZealot]

Is that plane riding over a curb?

[Luscion]

Toto

“Our pace has not been as strong as it was before the summer break, and our rivals have taken a step forward. We showed a good perfomance at Zandvoort and Monza, but only at times. We were not able to unlock the potential of the car consistently,”

“We've spent a lot of time analysing the last few weekends and now we have an opportunity to show that we understand what it takes to improve.”

https://formu1a.uno/it/wolff-i-rivali-h ... -indietro/

[Formula 1 fan 1996]

So, no new upgrades for Mercedes for this race in Baku?

[Luscion]

figured i'd post from interesting parts of AMuS interview with Russell
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... view-2024/

We have now seen a few times that one-stop strategies have led to success, even though they were not actually considered feasible. Is that a lesson for the future?

Russell: I think you have to check the circumstances even more during the race and react to them if necessary. At Spa, there was suddenly a strong tailwind on the long straight on race day. That made overtaking very difficult. You have to adapt your strategy. The track itself also plays a role. With the small wings at Spa, the DRS gave you two and a half tenths. In Barcelona it would have been six tenths. My tactics at Spa would never have worked in Barcelona.

Talking about Spa DSQ

Would a full lap of honor to pick up tire shreds have saved you?

Russell: I think so. It's a procedure you already do in the kart. My set of tires weighed over a kilogram less than Lewis'. We've never had such a big difference. I was 500 grams lighter than my usual fighting weight. And the plank under my car had worn out more, which also made up a few hundred grams. These three factors led to the underweight. A tire with a pickup easily weighs 400 grams more. With four tires, that would have been enough.

What needs to be improved on the car?

Russell: We struggle more when the rear tires are under a lot of strain. This increases the hotter it is. Then the traction suffers. The problem is not easy to understand. Our predictions are accurate in reality. We know what we gain or lose depending on the temperature. But it's no use comparing ourselves with ourselves. We lose more relative to the competition when it's hot. The question is: are our opponents particularly good in the heat or are we not good enough? The same applies to cooler conditions. Either we are particularly strong or the others are bad compared to us. And these are the little things that can have a huge impact.

Can the Mercedes win on every track?

Russell: We surprised ourselves at Spa, but we showed less than we are capable of at Zandvoort. In Monza we were strong on one lap, but we lacked the speed in the race. We are still struggling to understand why we are fast or not. But the big swings are no longer there. The others aren't doing any better. But I think McLaren is still slightly ahead.

[PlatinumZealot]

Interesting interview.
I am very curious how Mcalren has such good traction with the same PU and gearbox?? I was trying to say they have pulsed torque output from the ers to keep tge tyres cool under accel. But its the same PU as mercedes.

[maxxer]

Ok. I am mechanical. And i can say the stiffer wing would have a higher frequency but lower amplitude. The dampening has little to do with the stiffness if the wing has supporting parts or layers dedicated to damping. This would be whatever the engineers want it to be. (in how many oscillations does the amplitude reduce by a given amount).

This is for a typical spring system in a constant oscilatory mode, that's not what we are talking about. These flaps shouldn't even start to oscillate unless the car goes over a serrated kerb. You can clearly see how the wing flexes and flutters all the time on Zandvoort footage.

I dont think you can use two tracks to compare this because the input forces would be different unless the engineers purposely tuned the tyre pressures and suspension to make the input forces as similar as possible to another track. But it is easier to avoid this and use two cars to compare.

We don't have 2 cases, we have 3. Austria with the "Monaco" wing spec and Zandvoort and Monza with "Spa" wing spec, using different size flaps too. Monaco spec exhibits flutter only over kerbs, while Spa spec exhibits flutter all the time over entire lap. You can find Monza footage here

We were having a discussion about whether or not there is intent in the fluttering of the Mercedes front wing. The footage from Monza shows that the Mercedes front wing flutters much more than others even in the normal aero conditions and in the absence of curb strikes:




So this isn't something that's just because a curb was struck harder than other cars in the footage. The Mercedes wing just flutters more. That is the way it is designed.

Besides the fluttering of the later flaps it seems to me they are also losing energy , if i look at those 4 videos , the more ridigd wings from RB en Ferarri are pushing that energy more out to lower the end plates of the wing lower to the ground changing the angle of them and create more outwash , but thats just what i could see abit on those 4 videos

[Matt2725]

Interesting interview.
I am very curious how Mcalren has such good traction with the same PU and gearbox?? I was trying to say they have pulsed torque output from the ers to keep tge tyres cool under accel. But its the same PU as mercedes.

McLaren has their own in-house gearbox do they not?

[Juzh]

Interesting interview.
I am very curious how Mcalren has such good traction with the same PU and gearbox?? I was trying to say they have pulsed torque output from the ers to keep tge tyres cool under accel. But its the same PU as mercedes.

McLaren has their own in-house gearbox do they not?

yes

[Emag]

Interesting interview.
I am very curious how Mcalren has such good traction with the same PU and gearbox?? I was trying to say they have pulsed torque output from the ers to keep tge tyres cool under accel. But its the same PU as mercedes.

The only thing McLaren gets from Mercedes is the power unit. Everything else on the car, they make themselves.

It is Aston who shares suspension elements and the gearbox with Mercedes. At least it has been for a while, someone can correct me if that changed this year.

[PlatinumZealot]

Ok makes sense. There is something Mercedes need to learn from them. Granted McLaren has always made great gearboxes in the past. I was a bit foggy on if they still did for the Ground effect rules.