Yeah this guy is just in another league
I was just thinking about this. Red Bull completely ignored the wings during recent years, focusing almost entirely on the floor and to some extent to the sidepods. The saying was that there are much more to be gained from floor, which was probably true for the first 1-2 years. However, I think they got the the point where only marginal gains can be made with the floor or only at the cost of stability/driveability.Bill wrote: ↑10 Sep 2024, 13:28redbull front wing look simply it lacks sophistication compared to mercedes ,how did they miss the flexy wings for which they were the pioneer. The focused more on floor for downforce but made car more difficult to drive .the is were newey leadership direction would have been important.
Well, looking at the race by race pace statistics from the previous page one would think they would have started that development in Miami or at the latest after Imola where the update failed miserably and it was clear they needed a different direction..Paa wrote: ↑10 Sep 2024, 19:07I was just thinking about this. Red Bull completely ignored the wings during recent years, focusing almost entirely on the floor and to some extent to the sidepods. The saying was that there are much more to be gained from floor, which was probably true for the first 1-2 years. However, I think they got the the point where only marginal gains can be made with the floor or only at the cost of stability/driveability.Bill wrote: ↑10 Sep 2024, 13:28redbull front wing look simply it lacks sophistication compared to mercedes ,how did they miss the flexy wings for which they were the pioneer. The focused more on floor for downforce but made car more difficult to drive .the is were newey leadership direction would have been important.
And now it seems obvious that their wing game is very basic compared to other teams. All other top teams have more variants suiting different track types and they also have more sophisticated solutions both front and rear.
Maybe Red Bull should look into that. It is possible that they beyond the direct gains of wing development, they could unlock extra potential on top by finding synergies.
By the time that the Imola update arrives physically, they are 1-2 months ahead in the windtunnel. As Verstappen said, they didn't believe him when he said there are issues. That is the explanation for why they did not react right away. It's difficult to apportion blame once the updates stopped working because for a short while, you need to hope it's a fluke and that further progression will iron out the kinks. You wasted too much resource to turn back. Then they reached the breaking point in Hungary. Of course, they should not have gone down the bad update route in the first place, but at least they decided to turn back now and not only after 2 years like Mercedes. Perhaps the season can be saved.Alexf1 wrote: ↑10 Sep 2024, 19:29Well, looking at the race by race pace statistics from the previous page one would think they would have started that development in Miami or at the latest after Imola where the update failed miserably and it was clear they needed a different direction..Paa wrote: ↑10 Sep 2024, 19:07I was just thinking about this. Red Bull completely ignored the wings during recent years, focusing almost entirely on the floor and to some extent to the sidepods. The saying was that there are much more to be gained from floor, which was probably true for the first 1-2 years. However, I think they got the the point where only marginal gains can be made with the floor or only at the cost of stability/driveability.Bill wrote: ↑10 Sep 2024, 13:28redbull front wing look simply it lacks sophistication compared to mercedes ,how did they miss the flexy wings for which they were the pioneer. The focused more on floor for downforce but made car more difficult to drive .the is were newey leadership direction would have been important.
And now it seems obvious that their wing game is very basic compared to other teams. All other top teams have more variants suiting different track types and they also have more sophisticated solutions both front and rear.
Maybe Red Bull should look into that. It is possible that they beyond the direct gains of wing development, they could unlock extra potential on top by finding synergies.
Also after they put the upgrades on the car they are actually measuring increased load. So it's difficult for the team to weigh up what the driver is saying to what the data shows. But in hindsight, they really should've prioritised driver feedback..AR3-GP wrote: ↑10 Sep 2024, 19:33By the time that the Imola update arrives physically, they are 1-2 months ahead in the windtunnel. As Verstappen said, they didn't believe him when he said there are issues. That is the explanation for why they did not react right away. It's difficult to apportion blame once the updates stopped working because for a short while, you need to hope it's a fluke and that further progression will iron out the kinks. You wasted too much resource to turn back. Then they reached the breaking point in Hungary. Of course, they should not have gone down the bad update route in the first place, but at least they decided to turn back now and not only after 2 years like Mercedes. Perhaps the season can be saved.Alexf1 wrote: ↑10 Sep 2024, 19:29Well, looking at the race by race pace statistics from the previous page one would think they would have started that development in Miami or at the latest after Imola where the update failed miserably and it was clear they needed a different direction..Paa wrote: ↑10 Sep 2024, 19:07
I was just thinking about this. Red Bull completely ignored the wings during recent years, focusing almost entirely on the floor and to some extent to the sidepods. The saying was that there are much more to be gained from floor, which was probably true for the first 1-2 years. However, I think they got the the point where only marginal gains can be made with the floor or only at the cost of stability/driveability.
And now it seems obvious that their wing game is very basic compared to other teams. All other top teams have more variants suiting different track types and they also have more sophisticated solutions both front and rear.
Maybe Red Bull should look into that. It is possible that they beyond the direct gains of wing development, they could unlock extra potential on top by finding synergies.
The RB20 in general has the wrong characteristic .
I find it quite telling that he emphasizes to not blindly believe in tools and simulations and also to prioritize driver feedback above cold measurements. I feel he might have experienced this in Red Bull recently.
It's how Mercedes failed with the W13.
Yes, the situation is indeed very similar to the Merc fiasco. It must be difficult to abandon a concept, while you see the big gains and sexy numbers in the tools. Possibly you even need to be a Newey caliber to be able to afford to do that.AR3-GP wrote: ↑11 Sep 2024, 00:34It's how Mercedes failed with the W13.
In my opinion, this was the difference between Newey and Wache leadership. Wache must have thought everything is so simple and that he could replace Newey with a systematic simulation led approach. Put all the ideas into the blender and let the simulations and tools decide for you...The tools and simulations told them to do shark mouths and concepts inspired by other cars (W13), but these concepts already failed on other cars (stiff suspension, low ground clearance, shrunken side pods, canon rear engine cover, were all failures of the W13). They must have thought their simulations and tools would lead them away from the mistakes that Mercedes made with these concepts, but it turns out to not be too different to how the W13 turned out. Peaky car with tiny operating window that was struck once in a blue moon.
You need more than tools and simulations. Simulations can make you think something is a good idea, but intuition can make you think twice. Newey had intuition which they lack now. Mclaren shows that it is possible to work without Newey, so Red Bull will have to find their own way.
He didn't want to speak on some bits of the RB19 because he believes some teams still haven't fully understood them today. And that's last years car already, when we are close to 2025 at this point. Truly one of the best cars in history