Renault race-fixing at Singapore 2008

[dave34m]

Anyway, the most important person in this saga, in my opinion, is Fernando Alonso.

I seem to remember this guy said over the radio something like "I feel a bit lonely" or "I don't feel as supported by the team as I would have liked" back in 2006, when he was NOT leading the race and losing to his teammate at that race (Fisi was in front). It wasn't a big deal really cos he was leading the championship if I remember right.

Then he switched to McLaren. However he's not given the expected No. 1 driver status and had to share stuff with a rookie. He got very upset with Hamilton and the management. It was very obvious and he was very vocal about it. It all made the news. Ultimately, he sold his team, giving information to FIA during Stepney-gate for immunity.

Flav obviously offered him No. 1 status at Renault and promised to treat him the way he desired. With this as a lure and his awkward position of having sold McLaren, he ditched the one year he still had to serve and came back to Renault. Nelson Piquet Junior would be the sacrifice.

And now we know that it went as far as having his teammate crash for him.

We can see how much this person, Fernando Alonso, demands priviledges within a team. He needs all the attention, all the good stuff, and he gets very upset if his teammate is doing better at any point of time. But then he is quick, so he can use that to find himself a place where he would be treated as king.

So after Michael Schumacher, we have Fernando Alonso, the new Mr. Give-It-All-To-Me... and probably a more obvious and vocal reincarnation of that.

Good luck Romain... [-o<

With all due respect;
I believe you are reading too much into Alonso's Psyche! JMO but I believe that Fred learned a great deal from the mistakes he made at McLaren!
He is still the most complete, and valuable driving commodity in F1.
That is golden!

Referring to him as the next "Mike" is a term of endearment!MHO

I hope he learned a lot from the mistakes he made at McLaren, he certainly didnt cover himself in glory that year, came off looking like a very spoilt little kid.

I'm not convinced in any shape that he is the most complete, and valuable driving commodity in F1 tho. IMO

He really needs a solid year in a good car with a team mate who can drive so everyone can compare his greatness. Hopefully it turns out better than last time for him.

[ss.vamsikrishna]

So mr golden and the most complete driver starts race from 15th in a aggressive strategy..and he does not know anything and say anything for chosing this strategy even though he is a complete driver on a STREET CIRCUIT

then his team crashes putting him in leader of the race...and mr golden boy goes home thinking it is a MIRACLE....are we bloody idiots that he does not know what has happened...or MR cheater's fan wants to ignore this fact...

this is so stupid...he should be punished man come on guys....think...

[nipo]

wow, Nipo, that's a very long bow to draw...

and though Flav may have put the final nail in NP jr's career, the guy himself ruined it by not being able to drive.

and Piquet sr reminds me of a football dad giving his son's coach a bollocking for keeping him on the bench...

Yeah, and I am aware I could be traveling off-topic a little bit, but I have always had quite strong feelings about how Alonso behaves and reacts. I think I've seen some great drives from him, but, Alonso as a person... let's say he's a bit spoilt... or childish...

Back to NP jr - he is probably the first on my hit list to get out of F1 so I agree 100% that he screwed up his own career. Just that NP Sn might wish to think otherwise

F1 is starting to work like Hong Kong soap drama (sorry that's where I'm from, ain't got better examples) - the more ridiculous and crappy it gets, the more people despise it; the more people despise it, the more attraction it generates!!!

So this might be "good" for F1 after all...

[Michiba]

So mr golden and the most complete driver starts race from 15th in a aggressive strategy..and he does not know anything and say anything for chosing this strategy even though he is a complete driver on a STREET CIRCUIT

then his team crashes putting him in leader of the race...and mr golden boy goes home thinking it is a MIRACLE....are we bloody idiots that he does not know what has happened...or MR cheater's fan wants to ignore this fact...

this is so stupid...he should be punished man come on guys....think...

jus stick to the facts mate.

I'm quite surprised at the sacking of Flav and symonds. The radio transcripts don't implicate them in any wrong doing at all, telemetry is up for interpretation, and what you are left with is a disgruntled accusation

[dave34m]

Clearly there is far more to it than has been leaked. Renault will not contest the charges after seeing all the evidence so to call it only a disgruntled accusation is a little understated.

I hope all the evidence comes out about this whole thing, wishful thinking maybe, but I really do hope so.

[Miguel]

There's one thing I'd like to say to all the forumers saying how Alonso wanted more attention in McLaren: As soon as Melbourne (yes, the first race of the season), Alonso's father, manager and girlfriend (now wife) left the McLaren garage because they felt marginated and lonely. Yes, as soon as Melbourne. They eventually saw the race in Renault's garage.

There was also a party organised by Ron in which, by contract, Alonso had to spend 15 minutes. He left on minute 16. Ron was obviously unhappy with this. With such a fall out in their relationships it's pretty clear Alonso is not the only one to blame. At least to me.

People should also remember that Lewis Hamilton managed to get McLaren investigated twice, at Monaco and Hungary.

[nipo]

jus stick to the facts mate.

I'm quite surprised at the sacking of Flav and symonds. The radio transcripts don't implicate them in any wrong doing at all, telemetry is up for interpretation, and what you are left with is a disgruntled accusation

The fact is that Flav and Symonds got sacked. In the midst of all these leaks and rumours, this perhaps is the most crystal clear piece of fact.

You don't sack two of the top people in the team for nothing. Yes, companies go to great lengths to dodge bullets like this one, but I trust that, if they could, they would rather fight this case and prove themselves innocent.

What could have happened was that shortly after this got public, senior people from Renault had a meeting. After that, they decided to question the people involved. From the response it became clear that race-fixing did happen, and they met again, deciding it was too much for the company to try and fight it out.

So the other way to stop the wound bleeding would be to play ball: "Okay, we sack those two guys and we won't fight it at the WMSC. Give us something sweet and let us hang on to F1."

Of course, this assumes the Renault mother company being clean in the race-fixing incident. It might not be the case, but what I am trying to say is, whichever way you think about it, race-fixing did happen and Flav and Symonds were involved.

[Michiba]

Clearly there is far more to it than has been leaked. Renault will not contest the charges after seeing all the evidence so to call it only a disgruntled accusation is a little understated.

I hope all the evidence comes out about this whole thing, wishful thinking maybe, but I really do hope so.

yes, of course. I would like to see all the evidence too and I'm sure there is plenty that we haven't seen. But as it stood, I was leaning on the side of renault. It seemed that they had a good case based on the evidence given.

[modbaraban]

It seemed that they had a good case based on the evidence given.

But they didn't. Had that all been NPjr's imagination, they'd eaten him alive and digested by now. But no, Renault have 'parted ways' with a very successful team manager (albeit a b***h) and one of the best tech heads in F1. That means they're in big trouble.

[Michiba]

jus stick to the facts mate.

I'm quite surprised at the sacking of Flav and symonds. The radio transcripts don't implicate them in any wrong doing at all, telemetry is up for interpretation, and what you are left with is a disgruntled accusation

The fact is that Flav and Symonds got sacked. In the midst of all these leaks and rumours, this perhaps is the most crystal clear piece of fact.

You don't sack two of the top people in the team for nothing. Yes, companies go to great lengths to dodge bullets like this one, but I trust that, if they could, they would rather fight this case and prove themselves innocent.

What could have happened was that shortly after this got public, senior people from Renault had a meeting. After that, they decided to question the people involved. From the response it became clear that race-fixing did happen, and they met again, deciding it was too much for the company to try and fight it out.

So the other way to stop the wound bleeding would be to play ball: "Okay, we sack those two guys and we won't fight it at the WMSC. Give us something sweet and let us hang on to F1."

Of course, this assumes the Renault mother company being clean in the race-fixing incident. It might not be the case, but what I am trying to say is, whichever way you think about it, race-fixing did happen and Flav and Symonds were involved.

Yes, they got sacked, that is fact. As to the reasons why? well that is still up for interpretation. Renault may well just want to distance themselves from the two protagonists just to protect themselves in case they were found guilty. Sure it would seem rather incriminating but as I said, it is still up to interpretation.

And the race fixing has yet to be determined as fact. The fact is the guy crashed, everything else stemming from that at the present is allegation and speculation.

Also, I'm not sure how Renault the car company would be directly affected by this financially. I had assumed that the F1 team was a separate entity for legal reasons, hence any financial penalty incurred would be by the F1 team and not Renault the car company, but I could be wrong.

[Michiba]

It seemed that they had a good case based on the evidence given.

But they didn't. Had that all been NPjr's imagination, they'd eaten him alive and digested by now. But no, Renault have 'parted ways' with a very successful team manager (albeit a b***h) and one of the best tech heads in F1. That means they're in big trouble.

Well the rumours are that the case against Flavio is heavily supported by Max who holds somewhat of a vendetta against the former, and we all know what he's capable of.

It's certainly a complex situation, and I thought it still could have gone either way given the evidence that has come to light.

[nipo]

Well the rumours are that the case against Flavio is heavily supported by Max who holds somewhat of a vendetta against the former, and we all know what he's capable of.

It's certainly a complex situation, and I thought it still could have gone either way given the evidence that has come to light.

And now you are going back to the rumours, not the facts.

No, I am not try to fight with you on this. I respect every bit of your "innocent until proven guilty" approach to this. Very lawful.

I am just viewing the case with my interpretation, as you call it. Obviously, Renault knows more than the telemetry/radio conversation/whatever that has come to light so far. That Renault decided to sack the top 2 guys of the F1 team and publicly announced that they won't dispute any of the charges speak volumes. It is, for me and probably for a coupla other guys here, convincing enough to suggest that the truth is not far from what Nelsinho claimed to have happened.

Of course we can (and have to) wait for more evidence to come out, as well as the final verdict. But I'm already thinking what the punishment on the team as a whole would be like, and whether further investigations will be launched and more individuals held responsible.

Fun to watch.

[bazanaius]

I'm not sure whether the sacking of Flav and Symonds is necessarily an admission of guilt, or more that Renault just want this to go away as quickly as possible. unfortunately it seems that we won't ever find out, which I think is a shame (not that I'd like to see Renault go, more that I think it's important that we find out the truth).

I have to agree with modbaraban that if Renault as a team was innocent in all of this they would have just provided evidence against Nelsinho and job's done.

I also think that had it gone to court there's a good chance that they would have been found innocent (through lack of conclusive evidence), having looked at the Daily Mail info I think it would be hard to call (and that the conclusions drawn by the FIA investigators seems to be very much personal opinion and selective hearing!) and a good lawyer could make a good case for innocence.

Where it all falls down is the behaviour of Flav and Symonds, and this is why I think Renault have elected to go quietly and get rid of them.

Flav's reactions and recent outbursts in the press are embarassing and a strange way to respond (although consistent for Flav!)

Pat's interview with the FIA is a stumbling block for the defence - if he had just denied everything it would have been a lot harder to call the WMSC meeting I think. Then again I'm not sure if those responses were calculated or not.

meh - let's see what happens on Monday!

[SZ]

The fact is that Flav and Symonds got sacked. In the midst of all these leaks and rumours, this perhaps is the most crystal clear piece of fact.

You don't sack two of the top people in the team for nothing. Yes, companies go to great lengths to dodge bullets like this one, but I trust that, if they could, they would rather fight this case and prove themselves innocent.

What could have happened was that shortly after this got public, senior people from Renault had a meeting. After that, they decided to question the people involved. From the response it became clear that race-fixing did happen, and they met again, deciding it was too much for the company to try and fight it out.

So the other way to stop the wound bleeding would be to play ball: "Okay, we sack those two guys and we won't fight it at the WMSC. Give us something sweet and let us hang on to F1."

Nope. It's amazing some of you are still missing the point.

The (circumstantial) evidence presented implicates Flav the least, and yet he's got no immunity whatsoever. If you can't tell this is a setup to get Flav out of the sport for the moment, you're missing the boat in a big way.

Renault France were made to understand that if they turned up to the WMSC on Monday with Flav in tow, they could bet on a very, very serious fine. When both NP and Symonds were offered immunity - in light of 'leaked' evidence that implicates them both most severely, and Flav the least of the three - short of the FIA putting a neon sign outside Renault SA's main offices that read 'we want Flav's head', it couldn't have been more blatant who's head was wanted.

And Renault in turn have to pander to the FIA by having not just Flav, but anyone else at that meeting leave, or it's similarly too obvious that they've read between the lines (just getting rid of Flav alone would open up a legal avenue for Flav to sue the team for wrongful termination). Symonds is collateral damage in this mess.

Of course, this assumes the Renault mother company being clean in the race-fixing incident. It might not be the case, but what I am trying to say is, whichever way you think about it, race-fixing did happen and Flav and Symonds were involved.

The only part agreed on by both parties is that a pre-race meeting took place between Flav, Symonds and NP and someone mentioned throwing the race. NP alleges it was the top brass, PS alleges it was NP. There's certainly no agreement that the race was deliberately thrown. Renault France was given two options:

- Turn up to WMSC with Flav, this implies you deny everything, suffer massive penalty.
- Turn up without him, you don't need to deny anything, far lesser penalty.

Making the smart choice doesn't necessarily mean it reflects any truth in what took place.

Aside from the evidence of a deliberate fix being circumstantial - it's really not important. Attempts to fix race results have been made in recent times, and in more blatant and dangerous ways. In each case the WMSC stayed out of things and no one lost their jobs.

The only speculative bit worth debating is why Flav's wanted out (I've stated my bit here).

[xpensive]

I think you wrapped up my own sentiments rather precisely, SZ.