2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[djones]

Squat suspension is now gone. The fancy individual braking system is now gone.

No Adrian to help them anymore. A team that looks to half of the time be falling out internally.

It's going to be a tough end to the season for them that's for sure. I personally think they will still win the WDC with the initial gap they built up. Partly because McLaren and Ferrari are taking points away from each other too.

[Curbstone]

I've seen the fragment of GP confidential (which I believe is the only source for something like a ban on suspension tricks, so I have some doubts about the reliability) and the car thread, but none of them seem to mention the squating you are talking about.

They mention a 3 nitrogen damper combination. My understanding was that the first is a regular bumps damper, the second (with the latency effect) prevented bouncing and porposing at low ride heights and the third (with an even greater latency effect) logeren the car on the second half of the straights.

So I guess it's your own understanding, based on the short item on GP confidential which lacks details?
I have strong doubts about this, first one is the squatting; in the years 2020 and 2021 this effect was clearly visible. In 2022 and beyond not at all.
Second one is the porpoising; if such damper would have been used and now been banned, we would have seen at least some issues with porpoising, which I have not.

Together with the so called a-symmetrical brake system (Scarbs drawings/theory wouldn't work) there's is a lot of assumptions and fictional stories going around.

[Watto]

I've seen the fragment of GP confidential (which I believe is the only source for something like a ban on suspension tricks, so I have some doubts about the reliability) and the car thread, but none of them seem to mention the squating you are talking about.

They mention a 3 nitrogen damper combination. My understanding was that the first is a regular bumps damper, the second (with the latency effect) prevented bouncing and porposing at low ride heights and the third (with an even greater latency effect) logeren the car on the second half of the straights.

So I guess it's your own understanding, based on the short item on GP confidential which lacks details?
I have strong doubts about this, first one is the squatting; in the years 2020 and 2021 this effect was clearly visible. In 2022 and beyond not at all.
Second one is the porpoising; if such damper would have been used and now been banned, we would have seen at least some issues with porpoising, which I have not.

Together with the so called a-symmetrical brake system (Scarbs drawings/theory wouldn't work) there's is a lot of assumptions and fictional stories going around.

I think when Ted asked the paddock too if the breaking ban was behind red bulls issues they all said no including Mercedes that said red bull just took a bad development path, teams tend to be happy to push an opponent team pushing boundaries too much

[venkyhere]

Attitude looks to be positive at Red Bull.

Max ahead of Singapore GP: "We learned our mistakes in Baku."

"We learned from what we did wrong in Baku and will try a few different things in Singapore.

The adjustments we initially made in Azerbaijan worked out well and with that we worked in the right direction. We now know what we can do even better to further optimise the setup."

"It will be important to get better control of the car, especially in the slower parts of the track, so it doesn't 'jump around' as much. Hopefully that will help us a lot."

Checo ahead of Singapore GP: "The car had the pace with the current package."

"It was such a shame in Baku for the whole Team, so much hard work had gone into getting a more competitive car on track for us and it was really showing. We had the pace all weekend and now it’s about converting that pace into a podium in Singapore."

The car has shown it’s capable with this package, so we need to get the set-up right across the weekend and execute our qualifying and race plan perfectly."

Not to be negative...it seems a lot like the type of rhetoric that Mercedes were spewing out when the w13 came out. I'm not saying the rb20 is as bad as that car was but it seems they still don't understand what happens from Friday to Saturday. Max and checo were very competitive in p1,2,3 and then dropped off in qualifying.

I wouldn't go so far.. Perez' car which didn't undergo changes afte FP3, did well in Q and Race. Podium capable. They made a hopeful change on Verstappen's car after FP3 and ruined it. I still think the car will do well in the races until end of season compared to the 'post-Miami' saga ; but it will still be 3rd/4th in terms of pace. Because the 'fix' they have is to sacrifice raw downforce and buy it back from wings => it will be draggier than say Mclaren/Ferrari for sure, if all are going for the same overall DF. And I still think the root cause of all this is the suspension

[Alexf1]

I've seen the fragment of GP confidential (which I believe is the only source for something like a ban on suspension tricks, so I have some doubts about the reliability) and the car thread, but none of them seem to mention the squating you are talking about.

They mention a 3 nitrogen damper combination. My understanding was that the first is a regular bumps damper, the second (with the latency effect) prevented bouncing and porposing at low ride heights and the third (with an even greater latency effect) logeren the car on the second half of the straights.

So I guess it's your own understanding, based on the short item on GP confidential which lacks details?
I have strong doubts about this, first one is the squatting; in the years 2020 and 2021 this effect was clearly visible. In 2022 and beyond not at all.
Second one is the porpoising; if such damper would have been used and now been banned, we would have seen at least some issues with porpoising, which I have not.

Together with the so called a-symmetrical brake system (Scarbs drawings/theory wouldn't work) there's is a lot of assumptions and fictional stories going around.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/ted-kravi ... -not-trick

[Jdn1327]

Attitude looks to be positive at Red Bull.

Max ahead of Singapore GP: "We learned our mistakes in Baku."

"We learned from what we did wrong in Baku and will try a few different things in Singapore.

The adjustments we initially made in Azerbaijan worked out well and with that we worked in the right direction. We now know what we can do even better to further optimise the setup."

"It will be important to get better control of the car, especially in the slower parts of the track, so it doesn't 'jump around' as much. Hopefully that will help us a lot."

Checo ahead of Singapore GP: "The car had the pace with the current package."

"It was such a shame in Baku for the whole Team, so much hard work had gone into getting a more competitive car on track for us and it was really showing. We had the pace all weekend and now it’s about converting that pace into a podium in Singapore."

The car has shown it’s capable with this package, so we need to get the set-up right across the weekend and execute our qualifying and race plan perfectly."

Not to be negative...it seems a lot like the type of rhetoric that Mercedes were spewing out when the w13 came out. I'm not saying the rb20 is as bad as that car was but it seems they still don't understand what happens from Friday to Saturday. Max and checo were very competitive in p1,2,3 and then dropped off in qualifying.

I wouldn't go so far.. Perez' car which didn't undergo changes afte FP3, did well in Q and Race. Podium capable. They made a hopeful change on Verstappen's car after FP3 and ruined it. I still think the car will do well in the races until end of season compared to the 'post-Miami' saga ; but it will still be 3rd/4th in terms of pace. Because the 'fix' they have is to sacrifice raw downforce and buy it back from wings => it will be draggier than say Mclaren/Ferrari for sure, if all are going for the same overall DF. And I still think the root cause of all this is the suspension

Are we also seeing the effects of the punishment for the cost cap breach as well? Others have mentioned before...this car hasn't gotten slower...they've just been out-developed by mclaren and ferrari.

[organic]

Not to be negative...it seems a lot like the type of rhetoric that Mercedes were spewing out when the w13 came out. I'm not saying the rb20 is as bad as that car was but it seems they still don't understand what happens from Friday to Saturday. Max and checo were very competitive in p1,2,3 and then dropped off in qualifying.

I wouldn't go so far.. Perez' car which didn't undergo changes afte FP3, did well in Q and Race. Podium capable. They made a hopeful change on Verstappen's car after FP3 and ruined it. I still think the car will do well in the races until end of season compared to the 'post-Miami' saga ; but it will still be 3rd/4th in terms of pace. Because the 'fix' they have is to sacrifice raw downforce and buy it back from wings => it will be draggier than say Mclaren/Ferrari for sure, if all are going for the same overall DF. And I still think the root cause of all this is the suspension

Are we also seeing the effects of the punishment for the cost cap breach as well? Others have mentioned before...this car hasn't gotten slower...they've just been out-developed by mclaren and ferrari.

Belief in the team now is that they made the car slower with the Imola upgrades (& beyond) even if they're measuring more load. And the unfavourable characteristics that were significantly worsened @ Imola have been there since mid-2023. That's the latest information we have I guess

[Sergej]

Max on racing in Singapore: "doesn't expect it to be our strongest weekend."

"Our car generally isn't very good on bumps and kerbs, and that is what we have around here so we need to try and stabilise it. I don't know even where to start.

I'm confident we can do a better job than last year but the competition has improved quite a bit. i'm definitely targeting Q3 put it like that."

pretty confident

[sour]

Tobi Grüner - Red Bull now says that I have misquoted Checo: ‘When asked about the McLaren RW he said “it’s clear their RW is out of regs and it’s a legal car.” Not illegal. In his accent that could be heard as illegal.’ Hope you get a chance to hear it yourself...

https://x.com/tgruener/status/1836799172449886549

haha this is fun.

[organic]

https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/red- ... stened-to/

Sergio Perez has revealed some of Red Bull’s Formula 1 engineers apologised to him after the recent Italian Grand Prix because the team now better understood the nature of the car problems that had been limiting his performance earlier in the season but were only fully recognised once team-mate Max Verstappen started to struggle too.

Perez:

"In a way, yes. To be fair, some of the engineers after Monza came to me and apologise, in a way, because now it’s a lot clearer [what] the issues I was talking about [were].

"It was always the speculation around it and people saying the problem was I was not focused enough or other things.

“But at the end of the day, I’m just happy that we found out the problem and that we can focus on that and improve it.”

So this is the same issue as the rb16 essentially. Gone down a development path that added instability and you only find out you've done it after 12 months because Verstappen can drive around it until it gets ridiculously bad. Something within their process of drivers feeding back to the engineers needs to change I suspect. .

Here's Waché talking about the rb16. It seems very applicable to current situation

It’s ironic that, in 2020, Max’s talent was a contributory cause to the problem we had,” he remarked.

“He has an ability to control this sort of instability that would be impossible for some others. We know that sometimes, making a car on the edge in this way can create a quicker car – and you don’t realise you went in the wrong direction because you are still extracting more lap time from the car.

“But you don’t realise at first it’s only because he has so much talent. So you keep going in this direction but you go too far and it takes you a few months to come back from that and realise you’d gone in the wrong direction.

“The system is so big that to rethink the aero surfaces of the car and remake them, it was a long and painful process.

[AR3-GP]

https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/red- ... stened-to/

Sergio Perez has revealed some of Red Bull’s Formula 1 engineers apologised to him after the recent Italian Grand Prix because the team now better understood the nature of the car problems that had been limiting his performance earlier in the season but were only fully recognised once team-mate Max Verstappen started to struggle too.

Perez:

"In a way, yes. To be fair, some of the engineers after Monza came to me and apologise, in a way, because now it’s a lot clearer [what] the issues I was talking about [were].

"It was always the speculation around it and people saying the problem was I was not focused enough or other things.

“But at the end of the day, I’m just happy that we found out the problem and that we can focus on that and improve it.”

So this is the same issue as the rb16 essentially. Gone down a development path that added instability and you only find out you've done it after 12 months because Verstappen can drive around it until it gets ridiculously bad. Something within their process of drivers feeding back to the engineers needs to change I suspect. .

Here's Waché talking about the rb16. It seems very applicable to current situation

It’s ironic that, in 2020, Max’s talent was a contributory cause to the problem we had,” he remarked.

“He has an ability to control this sort of instability that would be impossible for some others. We know that sometimes, making a car on the edge in this way can create a quicker car – and you don’t realise you went in the wrong direction because you are still extracting more lap time from the car.

“But you don’t realise at first it’s only because he has so much talent. So you keep going in this direction but you go too far and it takes you a few months to come back from that and realise you’d gone in the wrong direction.

“The system is so big that to rethink the aero surfaces of the car and remake them, it was a long and painful process.

It's not a given that a "more stable" car would have made the RB19 faster last year (and if the RB19 would have been faster last year than it already was with another design, then lmao ) . At the end of the day, what matters is the laptimes and results, not how it got there. If Max could take advantage of it, then it wasn't the wrong thing to do. It's only wrong after they have exhausted its potential and no longer improve. That's true of any concept. Now is the time to come up with something new. They have reacted in a reasonable time frame.

So this doesn't absolve Perez entirely and he doesn't get to rewrite history. They had a very fast car with some instability in it, while Perez was struggling. That's on him, not Max or Red Bull. What is on Red Bull is not detecting the crossover point sooner. That crossover point is not just "when Perez started struggling". Clearly Max could get a lot of speed out of it with some instability and there's no reason why the car shouldn't have a manageable amount of instability as long as Max can drive it quicker than one which is "stable, but slower".

[Farnborough]

In this example it's just as much the vector that the development path is heading onto that can ultimately kill a high performing chassis concept.

The following "train" of development coming down the line that's travelling to the wrong destination that we see clearly now.

MB still haven't sorted theirs, Ferrari really lost their way, McL turning up at Bahrain in 2022 with an absolute shed of aero concept, and the brakes on backwards come to mind.

Deep and honest thinking along with engineering talent is what drags them back on track.

[AR3-GP]

The feedback this season is very similar to that race in Singapore last year. I think the race in Singapore last year should be considered the earliest crossover point. At that time, they could have perhaps taken a step back to consider why the car reacted like that on that track. In 2023, the Singapore performance was a small part of the setup window. This year, the cars entire setup window reproduces behavior like Singapore (unpredictable rear), so that might be a sign that the concept was finally pushed over the edge.

It's exciting (?) to see what they come up with now and its good for 2025.

[AR3-GP]

Assuming their understanding of the problem is deeper than "It's slow".

[Rikhart]

Assuming their understanding of the problem is deeper than "It's slow".

I for one think this is pretty positive, I don't think Verstappen would say something like this without it being factual and measurable, instead of PR or hype.