Renault race-fixing at Singapore 2008

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mcdenife
mcdenife
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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More than 1 young driver would have succumbed to the dark side, not just PK... Flav is the bad guy in all this(regardless of how many people want to point fingers at Max), and Flav seems to be getting off eas.
As far I am aware there is so far absolutely no evidence to go on but NP statement, conjecture and surmisess that he (NP) was asked to crash. Flav is my least liked person in F1 but even I can see someone is out to get him. For all I know, both NP's (particularly snr) could have come up with this to either to curry favour or 'sweeten' the then ongoing contract negotiations. This being case then PS may well be right that NP suggested it (how else is the team to know they are doing this to help).Regardless, all we have is NP's word against both Flav's and PS so, Islam.., I dont see how anyone can say 'Flav is the bad guy in all this'. Yes, if this was so, then either Flav and/or PS should have rebuked him and infact fired NP immediately. But we will now know if in fact they did or what their response was as they have both now resigned. All we are left with is NP's word. IMHO, whether there was request or not, I think both NP's are the bad guys in all this.
During the last GP (Monza) some drivers were given some of the lastest leaked info and asked for their comments. Barrichello laughed and responded that "It seems someone is out to get Flavio", says it all doesnt it. I think it is sad the circumstances under which both these guys (PS and Flav) are departing but I hope it wont be the last we see of them (yes, I mean Flav as well, love him or loath him, he brought a lot F1).
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.

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tarzoon
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Joined: 17 May 2006, 19:53
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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Tazio wrote:
Since were on the subject:

"Fool:

"He's mad that trusts in the tameness of a wolf, a horse's health,
a boy's love, or a whore's oath." [-X #-o :wtf:


King Lear (III, vi, 19-21)[/quote]

in this case you can add something...

"He's mad that trusts in the tameness of a wolf, a horse's health,
a boy's love, or a whore's oath or S&Max and the Midget forgeting about the idea for a new formula series."

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Rob W
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Joined: 18 Aug 2006, 03:28

Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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Interestingly, Eddie Irvine has something to say on this and I partially see his point of view..
"Formula One has always been a war and in war all is fair," the former Jordan, Ferrari and Jaguar driver told Radio 5 live.

"When I was in various teams you would do anything to win. Back in the day it was normal.
Substantially, if you set aside the safety issue (which are serous), Renault's actions aren't all that different to other team's blatant result altering actions - usually in full view of the world. An example is Ferrari telling Rubens to let Michael win on the radio, and on other occasions having their second driver hold up other cars deliberately.

The difference here is Renault wanted to make it look like something else - but the intention was the same: altering the race result through non-ethical means.

It actually doesn't matter morally that when Ferrari did it the rules allowed team orders (as I know some will reply claiming) - it defeats the purpose of sporting pursuit of all competitors aren't aiming to win.

Scotracer
Scotracer
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Joined: 22 Apr 2008, 17:09
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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"Formula One has always been a war and in war all is fair," the former Jordan, Ferrari and Jaguar driver told Radio 5 live.

"When I was in various teams you would do anything to win. Back in the day it was normal.
Then why do War Crimes exist, Eddie? :P
Powertrain Cooling Engineer

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tarzoon
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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How different is NPjr accident from this one?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeAuQ2Xem4Q[/youtube]

vall
vall
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Joined: 04 Nov 2008, 21:31

Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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tarzoon wrote:How different is NPjr accident from this one?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeAuQ2Xem4Q[/youtube]
Why are you bringing this on!?!?!?! I don't understand way he was so furious :shock: He knows what he did twice (at least) before: 1994 and 1997?

bill shoe
bill shoe
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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I shed no tears for Flavio or Renault or Piquet Jr.

But a year ago we all knew the crash was probably intentional, and although I was a bit frustrated by the situation I did not see it as a giant cheating/race-fixing kind of thing. It was a dumb decision, but the process of formally investigating it makes it seem worse. Formal investigations have no ability to recognize the context of "for better or worse this is somewhat common, this can't be eliminated, this is the nature of sport".

I mean, at Hungary(?) Renualt loses a wheel on Alonso which happens from time to time in professional racing, but as soon as the stewards decide to do a formal investigation it becomes a terrible safety crime and Renault gets banned for a race! Did anybody watching the wheel come off live on TV really immediately think the team should be banned because of it?

And I'll tread gently here, but whatever your opinions are about the McLaren/Ferarri situation two years ago, that seems like a classic case of unfortunate but relatively routine behavior that eventually seemed more severe due to it being put into the context of a formal investigation.

My sense is that if all human behavior in Formula 1 were formally investigated then the last person banned from the paddock would have to turn out the lights because there would be nobody left.

I want the FIA to formally consider objective issues like how wide is the front wing on some car and is the wing legal. I don't want the FIA to apply its formal context to human behavior. That's what sport is for.

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ISLAMATRON
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Joined: 01 Oct 2008, 18:29

Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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tarzoon wrote:How different is NPjr accident from this one?
Extremely different

timbo
timbo
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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For those who still don't think that the whole story created by Max read this http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78704
So, what new facts Max've got now that he couldn't get back then?
Piquet's admission? I wonder whether there was MS' admission in Monaco'06 :lol:

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tarzoon
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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ISLAMATRON wrote:
tarzoon wrote:How different is NPjr accident from this one?
Extremely different
Yes, one is a crash and the other is let-through (or a brake test as suggested by Schummi). Some doubts remained at the time, since it meant championship points for Hakkinen (or at least the same advantage), team orders and a dangerous situation. At the time nothing was proven - and I won't be the one saying Coulthard meant to crash!

But then again here's the thing: we are being drawn into conclusions by what could be seen as plausible evidences and personal judgements. And we already have 2 guilties: Flavio and NPjr. One for giving orders and the other for executing them.

vall
vall
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Joined: 04 Nov 2008, 21:31

Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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tarzoon wrote:Anyway, we already have 2 guilties: Flavio and NPjr. One for giving cheating orders and the other for executing them to secure his place for a few more GPs
wait a minute! I speak as it was something proved beyond any doubt!?!?!?! As I said (and not only me) few pages before, we have only NPjr's word. Unless Flav ot Pat confess, or FAI has something more we don't know about, there is no way this could be proven. Face it.

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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vall wrote:
tarzoon wrote:Anyway, we already have 2 guilties: Flavio and NPjr. One for giving cheating orders and the other for executing them to secure his place for a few more GPs
wait a minute! I speak as it was something proved beyond any doubt!?!?!?! As I said (and not only me) few pages before, we have only NPjr's word. Unless Flav ot Pat confess, or FAI has something more we don't know about, there is no way this could be proven. Face it.
It is proven by the FACT that FLAV has quit/been shown the door.

vall
vall
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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ISLAMATRON wrote:
vall wrote:
tarzoon wrote:Anyway, we already have 2 guilties: Flavio and NPjr. One for giving cheating orders and the other for executing them to secure his place for a few more GPs
wait a minute! I speak as it was something proved beyond any doubt!?!?!?! As I said (and not only me) few pages before, we have only NPjr's word. Unless Flav ot Pat confess, or FAI has something more we don't know about, there is no way this could be proven. Face it.
It is proven by the FACT that FLAV has quit/been shown the door.
Proven!!! Ron also stepped down! Does this proves he was guilty?

Richard
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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tarzoon wrote:I'm still finding hard to believe someone could crash and put his life at risk (let's forget about car safety for a moment) just like that
Yes it can happen and has happened before. I recall a chap in red car deliberately crashing into another car taking them both off the track. Twice.

At least Nelson only crashed into a wall.

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tarzoon
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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ISLAMATRON wrote:
It is proven by the FACT that FLAV has quit/been shown the door.
Quitting and being shown the door are two different things.

Again, we don't know why exactly why it happened. Was it because there were crash orders or was it to avoid bad marketing by finding an immediate guilty?


Hopefully we'll find out soon