2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Rikhart]

I've got the feeling that an AMR announcement isn't really far away.
Newey and Honda .. can't even really imagine Ver driving for RB next year.

Red Bull is losing key personnel at the same time that it is losing the WCC and, in the worst-case scenario, the WDC. If this is not meaning of falling apart, I don't know what is. The next big thing might be Max if he is leaving.

Next year might be too soon. Alonso is still there with a contract until the end of 2026. And I'm not sure what Verstappen thinks of Lance being on the team. Will Lawrence let Max drive for the championship?

Let? Do you really think Stroll would be anywhere near Verstappen? Maybe if they added 50 kgs of ballast that could happen!

[AeroDynamic]

How long can Horner remain? Several high profile red bull people have chose to leave the team within a span of a few months, while they were just beginning to enjoy a dominance cycle. Jos predicted this.

He has the backing of the Thai ownership. If they removed him now they'd be admitting defeat against the Austrian side of rb. Wheatley, who was the most obvious replacement, has already left so perhaps that ship has sailed

The Thai ‘leadership’ lack credibility to understand the business. Horner staying has clearly unsettled and disrupted a great team of people. He was more replaceable than those that left.

Horner, if he puts the team first, doesn’t need the Thai ownership to give him consent to stand down. I’m sure he understands the only benefit in him keeping the position, is to serve himself. It is not serving the team’s best interest. When Wheatley was there, it was obvious to anyone from the outside what strength and depth the team has to take over his responsibilities but he’s chosen himself over the team.

[Jurgen von Diaz]

I've got the feeling that an AMR announcement isn't really far away.
Newey and Honda .. can't even really imagine Ver driving for RB next year.

Next year might be too soon. Alonso is still there with a contract until the end of 2026. And I'm not sure what Verstappen thinks of Lance being on the team. Will Lawrence let Max drive for the championship?

Let? Do you really think Stroll would be anywhere near Verstappen? Maybe if they added 50 kgs of ballast that could happen!

Of course, Lance wouldn't keep up with Max's pace, but if the car is dominant, anything is possible. For now, sabotaging Alonso won't benefit the team because they aren't fighting for wins, but when it comes down to a championship fight, I can imagine that Lawrence wants to arrange Lance ahead somehow. Or Max takes the first championship, and the next one is going to be all in with Lance or nothing. We have to remember that Lance has bought himself into F1 so he can buy the championship too.

[Matt2725]

Next year might be too soon. Alonso is still there with a contract until the end of 2026. And I'm not sure what Verstappen thinks of Lance being on the team. Will Lawrence let Max drive for the championship?

Let? Do you really think Stroll would be anywhere near Verstappen? Maybe if they added 50 kgs of ballast that could happen!

Of course, Lance wouldn't keep up with Max's pace, but if the car is dominant, anything is possible. For now, sabotaging Alonso won't benefit the team because they aren't fighting for wins, but when it comes down to a championship fight, I can imagine that Lawrence wants to arrange Lance ahead somehow. Or Max takes the first championship, and the next one is going to be all in with Lance or nothing. We have to remember that Lance has bought himself into F1 so he can buy the championship too.

Can only buy it if you're miles ahead of the competition. Lance in the best car would still be beatable by better drivers in slower machinery.

[Dunlay]

How long can Horner remain? Several high profile red bull people have chose to leave the team within a span of a few months, while they were just beginning to enjoy a dominance cycle. Jos predicted this.

He has the backing of the Thai ownership. If they removed him now they'd be admitting defeat against the Austrian side of rb. Wheatley, who was the most obvious replacement, has already left so perhaps that ship has sailed

The Thai ‘leadership’ lack credibility to understand the business. Horner staying has clearly unsettled and disrupted a great team of people. He was more replaceable than those that left.

Horner, if he puts the team first, doesn’t need the Thai ownership to give him consent to stand down. I’m sure he understands the only benefit in him keeping the position, is to serve himself. It is not serving the team’s best interest. When Wheatley was there, it was obvious to anyone from the outside what strength and depth the team has to take over his responsibilities but he’s chosen himself over the team.

All this, IF F1 domination or championships is "ALL" that Red Bull corporation wants. I am willing to say, that's what average joe wants, not the billionaire business bosses. It's already reported that Yuvidhya has bigger plans for Red Bull GmbH and short term lack of success in F1, isn't probably a bummer for the bigger plans. Undesirable yes, but that won't mean sky is falling for them. They have gone without success for 7 years, but stuck around and eventually the success returned. Who is to say that won't happen again? Yes, Newey isn't there, it's a another big test.

[KimiRai]

Next year might be too soon. Alonso is still there with a contract until the end of 2026. And I'm not sure what Verstappen thinks of Lance being on the team. Will Lawrence let Max drive for the championship?

Of course, Lance wouldn't keep up with Max's pace, but if the car is dominant, anything is possible. For now, sabotaging Alonso won't benefit the team because they aren't fighting for wins, but when it comes down to a championship fight, I can imagine that Lawrence wants to arrange Lance ahead somehow.

At the start of 2023 when they knew they had a competitive machine they treated both drivers fairly. Alonso fought for a win in Canada and Monaco and they didn't tell him to slow down so Lance could catch them. There is some nepotism going on with the driver arrangement sure, but it's not to *that* amount.

I also see Max to AM as likely but it depends on many things at the moment. How RBPT performs, how Honda performs, how much Alonso wants to keep going... Imagine if Stroll sells it to the Saudis and they kick Lance to form a superteam with Max & Alonso.

[Jurgen von Diaz]

Next year might be too soon. Alonso is still there with a contract until the end of 2026. And I'm not sure what Verstappen thinks of Lance being on the team. Will Lawrence let Max drive for the championship?

Of course, Lance wouldn't keep up with Max's pace, but if the car is dominant, anything is possible. For now, sabotaging Alonso won't benefit the team because they aren't fighting for wins, but when it comes down to a championship fight, I can imagine that Lawrence wants to arrange Lance ahead somehow.

At the start of 2023 when they knew they had a competitive machine they treated both drivers fairly. Alonso fought for a win in Canada and Monaco and they didn't tell him to slow down so Lance could catch them. There is some nepotism going on with the driver arrangement sure, but it's not to *that* amount.

I also see Max to AM as likely but it depends on many things at the moment. How RBPT performs, how AM performs, how much Alonso wants to keep going... Imagine if Stroll sells it to the Saudis and they kick Lance to form a superteam with Max & Alonso. Many things could happen still.

I mean a dominant car, like Red Bull when Pérez followed Verstappen to the finish line. If that were the case, I'm afraid there could be a temptation to arrange their positions the other way somehow if Lance would be regulary P2...

[bananapeel23]

Next year might be too soon. Alonso is still there with a contract until the end of 2026. And I'm not sure what Verstappen thinks of Lance being on the team. Will Lawrence let Max drive for the championship?

Of course, Lance wouldn't keep up with Max's pace, but if the car is dominant, anything is possible. For now, sabotaging Alonso won't benefit the team because they aren't fighting for wins, but when it comes down to a championship fight, I can imagine that Lawrence wants to arrange Lance ahead somehow.

At the start of 2023 when they knew they had a competitive machine they treated both drivers fairly. Alonso fought for a win in Canada and Monaco and they didn't tell him to slow down so Lance could catch them. There is some nepotism going on with the driver arrangement sure, but it's not to *that* amount.

I also see Max to AM as likely but it depends on many things at the moment. How RBPT performs, how AM performs, how much Alonso wants to keep going... Imagine if Stroll sells it to the Saudis and they kick Lance to form a superteam with Max & Alonso. Many things could happen still.

I mean a dominant car, like Red Bull when Pérez followed Verstappen to the finish line. If that were the case, I'm afraid there could be a temptation to arrange their positions the other way somehow if Lance would be regulary P2...

The only way Lance gets a WDC in a dominant car is if they have a dominant car for several seasons in a row, refuse to renew the better drivers contract and then put someone like Latifi or Sargeant in the other car.

[AeroDynamic]

He has the backing of the Thai ownership. If they removed him now they'd be admitting defeat against the Austrian side of rb. Wheatley, who was the most obvious replacement, has already left so perhaps that ship has sailed

The Thai ‘leadership’ lack credibility to understand the business. Horner staying has clearly unsettled and disrupted a great team of people. He was more replaceable than those that left.

Horner, if he puts the team first, doesn’t need the Thai ownership to give him consent to stand down. I’m sure he understands the only benefit in him keeping the position, is to serve himself. It is not serving the team’s best interest. When Wheatley was there, it was obvious to anyone from the outside what strength and depth the team has to take over his responsibilities but he’s chosen himself over the team.

All this, IF F1 domination or championships is "ALL" that Red Bull corporation wants. I am willing to say, that's what average joe wants, not the billionaire business bosses. It's already reported that Yuvidhya has bigger plans for Red Bull GmbH and short term lack of success in F1, isn't probably a bummer for the bigger plans. Undesirable yes, but that won't mean sky is falling for them. They have gone without success for 7 years, but stuck around and eventually the success returned. Who is to say that won't happen again? Yes, Newey isn't there, it's a another big test.

That's probably why key people have left - like Newey - and why Red Bull were a force under DM. In F1, giving everything to win and become champion is the whole point. I don't think this belongs to the average Joe at all unless you think DM, Newey, Horner, and everyone in F1 that make their teams become successful, is the average Joe.

If the Thai ownership posses such a loser mentality as you speculate they do, they shouldn't be in F1.

[Dunlay]

The Thai ‘leadership’ lack credibility to understand the business. Horner staying has clearly unsettled and disrupted a great team of people. He was more replaceable than those that left.

Horner, if he puts the team first, doesn’t need the Thai ownership to give him consent to stand down. I’m sure he understands the only benefit in him keeping the position, is to serve himself. It is not serving the team’s best interest. When Wheatley was there, it was obvious to anyone from the outside what strength and depth the team has to take over his responsibilities but he’s chosen himself over the team.

All this, IF F1 domination or championships is "ALL" that Red Bull corporation wants. I am willing to say, that's what average joe wants, not the billionaire business bosses. It's already reported that Yuvidhya has bigger plans for Red Bull GmbH and short term lack of success in F1, isn't probably a bummer for the bigger plans. Undesirable yes, but that won't mean sky is falling for them. They have gone without success for 7 years, but stuck around and eventually the success returned. Who is to say that won't happen again? Yes, Newey isn't there, it's a another big test.

That's probably why key people have left - like Newey - and why Red Bull were a force under DM. In F1, giving everything to win and become champion is the whole point. I don't think this belongs to the average Joe at all unless you think DM, Newey, Horner, and everyone in F1 that make their teams become successful, is the average Joe.

If the Thai ownership posses such a loser mentality as you speculate they do, they shouldn't be in F1.

Every practical team owner knows, you can't keep winning, once you reached the summit, you can't be there forever. Success goes in circles and that's exactly what FIA wants and why they keep changing regulations. Even if the objective for every team is to win every year, but that's never happened in the history of F1. An average Joe wants to see Ferrari winning every year or Lewis winning every race or Max winning every race. That's where the pragmatism of doing business and continuing in the sport comes in, where bigger picture becomes more important than the short term loss of success. Team personnel have been changing since F1 has existed. If any team owner things these shouldn't happen or that they keep winning every race, then that's delusional. So I think they know it's the end of the world when team personnel leave or success eludes for a phase. I am sure if DM was alive, nobody would have orchesterated this whole scandal saga. But would Red Bull have continued winning every race? I bet not. Wouldn't the team personnel leave? I bet they would have. Newey himself in the past considered leaving Red Bull for an offer with other teams. Just that it didn't materialize. What would have people blamed if Newey had left when DM was alive and Red Bull wasn't having success? That's why, team owners are far more rationale to these periodic waves of changes, than an average Joe is.

[AeroDynamic]

All this, IF F1 domination or championships is "ALL" that Red Bull corporation wants. I am willing to say, that's what average joe wants, not the billionaire business bosses. It's already reported that Yuvidhya has bigger plans for Red Bull GmbH and short term lack of success in F1, isn't probably a bummer for the bigger plans. Undesirable yes, but that won't mean sky is falling for them. They have gone without success for 7 years, but stuck around and eventually the success returned. Who is to say that won't happen again? Yes, Newey isn't there, it's a another big test.

That's probably why key people have left - like Newey - and why Red Bull were a force under DM. In F1, giving everything to win and become champion is the whole point. I don't think this belongs to the average Joe at all unless you think DM, Newey, Horner, and everyone in F1 that make their teams become successful, is the average Joe.

If the Thai ownership posses such a loser mentality as you speculate they do, they shouldn't be in F1.

Every practical team owner knows, you can't keep winning, once you reached the summit, you can't be there forever. Success goes in circles and that's exactly what FIA wants and why they keep changing regulations. Even if the objective for every team is to win every year, but that's never happened in the history of F1. An average Joe wants to see Ferrari winning every year or Lewis winning every race or Max winning every race. That's where the pragmatism of doing business and continuing in the sport comes in, where bigger picture becomes more important than the short term loss of success. Team personnel have been changing since F1 has existed. If any team owner things these shouldn't happen or that they keep winning every race, then that's delusional. So I think they know it's the end of the world when team personnel leave or success eludes for a phase. I am sure if DM was alive, nobody would have orchesterated this whole scandal saga. But would Red Bull have continued winning every race? I bet not. Wouldn't the team personnel leave? I bet they would have. Newey himself in the past considered leaving Red Bull for an offer with other teams. Just that it didn't materialized. What would have people blamed if Newey had left when DM was alive and Red Bull wasn't having success? That's why, team owners are far more rationale to these periodic waves of changes, than an average Joe is.

Its not realistic to keep winning. Its very difficult to get there. Thats why when you get there, you have to make the most of it while you can. Keeping Horner is clearly doing the opposite, and fast.

losing the top designer, top sporting director, and other key people in strategy, technical, and mechanic level - in the space of a few months - while also potentially losing your top driver - is no way to make the most of your time at the top after just 2 years.

I'm willing to speculate that if Horner stepped down right away, the team would be in better shape right now and potentially remain dominant at least into 26.

[Dunlay]

That's probably why key people have left - like Newey - and why Red Bull were a force under DM. In F1, giving everything to win and become champion is the whole point. I don't think this belongs to the average Joe at all unless you think DM, Newey, Horner, and everyone in F1 that make their teams become successful, is the average Joe.

If the Thai ownership posses such a loser mentality as you speculate they do, they shouldn't be in F1.

Every practical team owner knows, you can't keep winning, once you reached the summit, you can't be there forever. Success goes in circles and that's exactly what FIA wants and why they keep changing regulations. Even if the objective for every team is to win every year, but that's never happened in the history of F1. An average Joe wants to see Ferrari winning every year or Lewis winning every race or Max winning every race. That's where the pragmatism of doing business and continuing in the sport comes in, where bigger picture becomes more important than the short term loss of success. Team personnel have been changing since F1 has existed. If any team owner things these shouldn't happen or that they keep winning every race, then that's delusional. So I think they know it's the end of the world when team personnel leave or success eludes for a phase. I am sure if DM was alive, nobody would have orchesterated this whole scandal saga. But would Red Bull have continued winning every race? I bet not. Wouldn't the team personnel leave? I bet they would have. Newey himself in the past considered leaving Red Bull for an offer with other teams. Just that it didn't materialized. What would have people blamed if Newey had left when DM was alive and Red Bull wasn't having success? That's why, team owners are far more rationale to these periodic waves of changes, than an average Joe is.

Its not realistic to keep winning. Its very difficult to get there. Thats why when you get there, you have to make the most of it while you can. Keeping Horner is clearly doing the opposite, and fast.

losing the top designer, top sporting director, and other key people in strategy, technical, and mechanic level - in the space of a few months - while also potentially losing your top driver - is no way to make the most of your time at the top after just 2 years.

I'm willing to speculate that if Horner stepped down right away, the team would be in better shape right now and potentially remain dominant at least into 26.

Ferrari has chopped top bosses so many times, did that yield anything? It was Horner that has seen 2 successful phases for the team. Replacing him isn't going to bring success that has started eluding them. If they have depth in their ranks, they will rise again. Else, they would require a few years to rebuild the team. Whether it's Horner or anyone else, that process isn't going to change.

[Waz]

Horner isn't the problem, unless you drank some of the Jos Verstappen Kool Aid

[Sieper]

How long can Horner remain? Several high profile red bull people have chose to leave the team within a span of a few months, while they were just beginning to enjoy a dominance cycle. Jos predicted this.

He has the backing of the Thai ownership. If they removed him now they'd be admitting defeat against the Austrian side of rb. Wheatley, who was the most obvious replacement, has already left so perhaps that ship has sailed

The Thai ‘leadership’ lack credibility to understand the business. Horner staying has clearly unsettled and disrupted a great team of people. He was more replaceable than those that left.

Horner, if he puts the team first, doesn’t need the Thai ownership to give him consent to stand down. I’m sure he understands the only benefit in him keeping the position, is to serve himself. It is not serving the team’s best interest. When Wheatley was there, it was obvious to anyone from the outside what strength and depth the team has to take over his responsibilities but he’s chosen himself over the team.

Couldn’t have said it better

[ispano6]

Looking at the telemetry on F1-tempo, Max' engine seemed to be tuned down a bit more than Norris'. Their fast laps had similar trace on the straights, while in the race sim, Max lost a few tenths.

Overall Norris seemed faster still, and the Ferraris as well, but the gap so far is less then what I had expected.

I noted this in the Honda PU thread. At the beginning of the year, the stated horsepower on VCARB launch site was 958-985HP. The website was updated with the Ricciardo/Lawson switch, and the original Vcarb01 launch sequence is gone and a static page with 901HP is listed now. This may be a revised number after the Canada PU issue.