Renault race-fixing at Singapore 2008

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SZ
SZ
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Joined: 21 May 2007, 11:29

Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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nipo wrote:Guys, Max behind this doesn't mean Flav and Pat are not responsible. These are two separate things. Put it this way, Max has always have this type of insider information about many teams and many people in the paddock. This time it is with Flav so he pulled out the file about Renault and used it against him. That doesn't make the information contained in the file any less true.
The issue I'd take with your argument (and the many possible deconstructions of doubt you've supplied) lie in your summary paragraph.

This is not a matter of truth or responsibility. The evidence supplied proves nothing, and FWIW I don't discount the possibility that the crash was orchestrated - in fact I think it's wholly possible. Very probably, the WMSC will vote that an accident was likely deliberately caused.

But that's not relevant. This is a matter of relevance.

Really, what does it matter that Renault may have cheated? Consider the severity of the reactions thus far and of the penalties that may be metered out at the WMSC meeting in progress. Then consider other actions of cheating in the sport, other actions that have more seriously put lives in jeopardy - there are many - and contrast the FIA's reaction to that we've seen.

Even the timing with which evidence has come to hand underpins it's relevance. For instance, the FIA first knew of such allegations last year - they only called evidence recently. One of many points of interest.

These points of interest, of course, are not what the WMSC meeting is about. So far as playing Dr Holmes regards what may or may not have happened, your arguments are all very valid. But nor are today's findings the endgame. You're missing the far bigger game at play, and the significance of the stakes at hand which underpin the highly irregular manner in which this whole facade's been played out.
Last edited by Steven on 22 Sep 2009, 13:06, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed personal attacks

timbo
timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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nipo wrote:Well I think it is otherwise. If there is any reasonable doubt the advantage goes to the defendant. IF Flav and Pat were innocent, they should be sitting there and wait for the prosecutors to prove them guilty, instead of having to prove themselves innocent. As you stated, because the evidence is so thin, IF Flav and Pat were innocent there couldn't be much conclusive evidence out there to prove them wrong, correct?
As you may've seen many folks in this thread thought otherwise)))
Still, having Flav and Pat at least suspected in anything may be a reason for Renault to drop them, don't you think?
nipo wrote:As I explained, this has nothing to do with the incident itself. We can continue down this line and look at the motives and methods used by Max (actually I quite appreciate the ppl here digging out the facts and analyzing how Max could be manipulating everybody, it just shows that Max has gone too far with FIA and F1), but this has got nothing to do with whether Flav is guilty or not.
Yes, I don't argue that, but don't you think that such act disqualifies Max and WMSC from judging anyone (in a perfect world that is)?
Also, don't you think such leaks and public opinion manipulation goes against the idea of presumption of innocence?

nipo
nipo
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Joined: 30 Jul 2009, 04:45
Location: Hong Kong

Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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SZ wrote:I'd like to think you're a little more intelligent.
I would gladly take that as a compliment :D

You are right that my playing of Mr. Holmes has little relevance of the big issue. Me coming out of silence and starting to write these posts is because I saw some logical gaps where the focus on Max's conspiracy somehow drifted to a conclusion that actually Flav is innocent. That's not a concern in your perspective, I know. It is one in mine.

Well, since now we seem to agree on most things, probably I'll go silent again. I'll be eagerly awaiting the developments and you guys' take on it (which so far has been fantastic except the little irrelevant logical gap that I pointed out :P).

MegaHurts
MegaHurts
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Joined: 15 May 2009, 14:03

Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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That was a quick verdict!

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pr ... 10909.aspx

I guess Renault admitting to it all spead things up

monkeyboy1976
monkeyboy1976
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Joined: 12 Jan 2006, 17:00
Location: Midlands, UK

Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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As regards Mr. Briatore, the World Motor Sport Council declares that, for an unlimited period, the FIA does not intend to sanction any International Event, Championship, Cup, Trophy, Challenge or Series involving Mr. Briatore in any capacity whatsoever, or grant any license to any Team or other entity engaging Mr. Briatore in any capacity whatsoever. It also hereby instructs all officials present at FIA-sanctioned events not to permit Mr. Briatore access to any areas under the FIA’s jurisdiction. Furthermore, it does not intend to renew any Superlicence granted to any driver who is associated (through a management contract or otherwise) with Mr. Briatore, or any entity or individual associated with Mr. Briatore. In determining that such instructions should be applicable for an unlimited period, the World Motor Sport Council has had regard not only to the severity of the breach in which Mr. Briatore was complicit but also to his actions in continuing to deny his participation in the breach despite all the evidence.
So, all drivers (Webbo and Kovi) with FB as a manager will not get a Superlicense next year unless they change managers. Nice touch.
Last edited by monkeyboy1976 on 21 Sep 2009, 14:30, edited 1 time in total.

SZ
SZ
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Joined: 21 May 2007, 11:29

Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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nipo wrote:You are right that my playing of Mr. Holmes has little relevance of the big issue. Me coming out of silence and starting to write these posts is because I saw some logical gaps where the focus on Max's conspiracy somehow drifted to a conclusion that actually Flav is innocent. That's not a concern in your perspective, I know. It is one in mine.

Well, since now we seem to agree on most things, probably I'll go silent again. I'll be eagerly awaiting the developments and you guys' take on it (which so far has been fantastic except the little irrelevant logical gap that I pointed out :P).
No need to go silent. Your contributions are welcomed.

I don't necessarily disagree with you - Flav may well be guilty, however there's little evidence prove as much.

That said, I don't expect the severity of whatever he's given to necessarily reflect this. Expect something that aligns more in line with Max/FIA's and the Piquet's interests. This is strictly an FIA-Flav battle. You do not leave the maFIA.

-hold the phone
And as I type, my crystal ball reigns true...

i70q7m7ghw
i70q7m7ghw
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Location: ...

Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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Absolutely rediculous. Renault have not been punished. No amount of apologies can right this wrong. Their team has effectively made last years championship null & void in the eyes of many people. The lightest punishment they should have recieved should have been exclusion from this years championship i.e all points removed, but still allowed to race.

This is not a punishment, this is a joke.

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
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Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

Suzuka 1990...

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Ayrton Senna openly admits to be prepared to take Alain Prost out before the race has started.

Once the lights go green, Senna duly delivers, and takes Prost out in a 150 mph shunt.

Senna is not repremanded for the incident, and becomes the world champion as a direct result of the pre-mediated crash.



Yet today, the WMSC have the face to say:

"The council considers Renault F1's breaches relating to the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix to be of unparalleled severity."



WHAT THE F**K ARE THEY SMOKING?!?!?!

lewis all the way
lewis all the way
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Joined: 22 Aug 2009, 21:29

Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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someone mentioned earlier about if flav gets charged with something he would also be banned from his qpr football club?

could someone please elaberate on this.

now hes been banned for life from any fia guided sporting events will his club suffer too?

User avatar
siskue2005
70
Joined: 11 May 2007, 21:50

Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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why didnt FIA strip the Renault victory from that race??
it would not have changed any championship standings
and would have been fair to give the victory to Roseberg

Timomies
Timomies
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Joined: 02 Jun 2009, 16:04
Location: Finland

Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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Diesel wrote:Absolutely rediculous. Renault have not been punished. No amount of apologies can right this wrong. Their team has effectively made last years championship null & void in the eyes of many people. The lightest punishment they should have recieved should have been exclusion from this years championship i.e all points removed, but still allowed to race.

This is not a punishment, this is a joke.
Why should FIA punish innocent workers in Enstone and Viry? Those who did wrong got penalty (except Piquet) and everything is fine now.

woohoo
woohoo
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Joined: 10 Aug 2008, 01:12

Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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This is simply nothing but a mockery of justice.

What is "suspended" nothing. Renault admitted guilt, and are not punished et all. they can keep their points, keep their WC money, and even keep the trophy.

They should ateast have had their points from 2008 revoked, and the money that they got from that, redistributed among the other teams.

This is just ... outragous really.
All you hva to do it fix a race, wait a year admit it, and you are scott free.
The only way to close a stupid question is to give a smart answer

kilcoo316
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Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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lewis all the way wrote:someone mentioned earlier about if flav gets charged with something he would also be banned from his qpr football club?

could someone please elaberate on this.

now hes been banned for life from any fia guided sporting events will his club suffer too?

What do the FIA have to do with FIFA?



(apart from them both being corrupt as f**k... run by a bunch of inept fat-cat sh!theads and incapable of making even the most basic of decisions properly)

rpm_br
rpm_br
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Joined: 21 Sep 2009, 14:38

Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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my brazilian point of view
Nelsinho is completely toasted, if he shows up in public here his personal safety is in danger. He should consider moving to US, where F1 is not so popular. Besides being considered a cheater, he is being considered as a whining, dad's boy gay cheater, even worse. Nelson Senior is toasted too, we don't forget this kinda thing.
Alonso, of course he knew it. He and Briatore are long time buddies, nobody farts at Renault without their knowledge. He is the smartest dumb person I ever knew, playing the cheated husband, the last one that knows it. They should suspend him too. Just look at his race tactics in Singapore, what was he expecting, a meteor from the sky? Nelsinho should be banned forever, and FIA should revoke his immunity. What a rat!

i70q7m7ghw
i70q7m7ghw
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Joined: 12 Mar 2006, 00:27
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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Timomies wrote:
Diesel wrote:Absolutely rediculous. Renault have not been punished. No amount of apologies can right this wrong. Their team has effectively made last years championship null & void in the eyes of many people. The lightest punishment they should have recieved should have been exclusion from this years championship i.e all points removed, but still allowed to race.

This is not a punishment, this is a joke.
Why should FIA punish innocent workers in Enstone and Viry? Those who did wrong got penalty (except Piquet) and everything is fine now.
OK, thats a perfectly valid point and I do agree in part. So why did the FIA punish innocent workers at McLaren?