Does F1 need another tweak to overtaking rules?

[chrisc90]

I’m sure the lap 52 Max and Lando incident will bring many discussions. But do we need a tweak to clear up the rules?

The overtaking car is ahead into the braking, but the defending car rolls off the brakes and becomes ahead at the apex of the corner, effectively giving the defending car the full rights to the corner. The defending car then doesn’t make the corner, by being a little too fast causing them to go 4 wheels off the track. The overtaking car ends up off track aswell as a consequence.

I feel the addition of the defending car having to fully make the corner by remaining on track would be a good addition, but you have to also think that when do you seperate the track limits and forcing another driver off track rule.

As the rules are written, I think the penalty was the correct outcome today, but in other views, it’s a crappy way to race.

The defending driver can simply take a bit more speed, be ahead at the apex, and have full rights of the corner. (Spare a thought it’s a bit different to a full send divebomb whilst your the overtaking car here)

[organic]

Yeah obviously!

[Watto]

Yep. I think they could take some work

[chrstphrln]

I think the rules would have allowed the stewards to make a Solomonic decision.
I just don't know why they didn't take it into consideration.

Max should also have received a 5 second penalty because he drove Lando off the track while defending his position.
That's the only reason he was able to keep his position, because if Max had braked normally, Lando would have been in front at the apex.
He was already ahead of Max a few metres before the apex, and Max only managed to get past him again by braking far too late.
In my opinion, the correct decision would have been to give Lando the 5 seconds for overtaking off the track and Max for forcing him off.

The result of such a decision by the stewards would then be that the defending driver would get out of the habit of defending unfairly in future.

[basti313]

No, not again. They are changing the rules year by year to make it more "objective" and it just gets worse as you can not understand it.

Just delete the rule. Give it into the hands of the stewards to judge on subjective basis.

[Mandrake]

To me the "being ahead at the apex" is what causes a lot of trouble. Drivers always try to be in front at the apex to claim the corner theirs, not regarding where the other car is then.

This ahead at the apex must go. If one car manages to go up the inside by a little bit the car on the outside needs to accomodate for it. The car on the inside however needs to make sure the outside car can stay on track. "All the time you have to leave the space". This is how racing works, you compromise the guy ahead to find a way by.

In the case of Lando and Max, Lando should not have been penalised as Max went off the road as well in a poor attempt at staying ahead at the apex.

In Austria the divebombs by Lando against Max should also be outlawed by this as he did not leave enough space on the outside of the track for the other car.

[chrisc90]

I also think the penalty shouldn’t be 10s, as it’s not a natural deterrent to give the place back. Cars can easily make up the time by overtaking illegally.

The rule should be you have to give the position back before the end of the next lap, or face a stop/go or drive through penalty.

[basti313]

To me the "being ahead at the apex" is what causes a lot of trouble.

Having this rule is mandatory for the way they want to judge. Not having this rule is what makes Silverstone 21 still up for debate.
As mentioned before...in every other racing series it is subjectively judged if you drive fair or not. F1 does not want this. F1 fans here do not want this. This is what makes such nice rules needed...here we rather discuss if someone rotates the other car by the rear wheel is at fault. In other series he just drives through the pits.

the divebombs...

...are also wanted by F1. And many fans here. Without borderline dive bombs you have at least 30% less overtaking.
I think it is funny, that people here started posting, that the DRS zone was too short. Next race the same people will again complain about boring DRS moves.

[bananapeel23]

There is no one size fits all type of overtaking rule. Any such rule would be more problematic than what we have now.

Lando clearly overtook off track and went way further off track than he needed to in order to get ahead of Verstappen. It was clearly an illegal overtake. The rules worked as intended.

A bit of hard racing is also just fun. Divebombing and squeezing people off the track(within reason) is fun. It's more fun to see drivers fighting tooth and nail to prevent a faster car from overtaking than it is to see the faster car blow by because hard racing is banned.

[ali623]

I think yesterday Max simply should have got a penalty for forcing another driver off the track, as he himself was off the track on corner exit. If he had kept within the track limits, it would have been fine. And either way Norris should have dropped back behind as you can't make an overtake off track.

[basti313]

I think yesterday Max simply should have got a penalty for forcing another driver off the track, as he himself was off the track on corner exit. If he had kept within the track limits, it would have been fine. And either way Norris should have dropped back behind as you can't make an overtake off track.

What means simply? New rule?
According to the current rule there is (simply) no penalty for this as he was ahead at the apex. However smart that rule is, but it is simple, you can be a nice guy if you are ahead.
He got one strike on the track limits, that was his penalty...

[napoleon1981]

The concept that you can't overtake of track is sound. The problem is that it can be abused by the defending car just opening up the steering wheel, or dive bomb and remove the gap on track. I believe that is also a rule that you need to leave a cars width, however this never gets brought into the conversation. If the defending car even runs off track, it really becomes problematic. Im not a fan of the rule as is, but i do believe it was applied consistently yesterday.

Hamilton has been a master of this, particularly in 2021 there were several instances where he deliberately opened up the steering to just force Max off track. It appears that Max has learned from this.

[Sevach]

To me the "being ahead at the apex" is what causes a lot of trouble. Drivers always try to be in front at the apex to claim the corner theirs, not regarding where the other car is then.

This ahead at the apex must go. If one car manages to go up the inside by a little bit the car on the outside needs to accomodate for it. The car on the inside however needs to make sure the outside car can stay on track. "All the time you have to leave the space". This is how racing works, you compromise the guy ahead to find a way by.

In the case of Lando and Max, Lando should not have been penalised as Max went off the road as well in a poor attempt at staying ahead at the apex.

In Austria the divebombs by Lando against Max should also be outlawed by this as he did not leave enough space on the outside of the track for the other car.

Ahead at the apex is a terrible measure because it can be gamed, maybe it should move to " completely level or slightly ahead before braking" must give room, you can still try to resist, but need to leave "the space" on the outside.
At the very least if you go out of the track (and force somebody out of the track) while trying to outbrake the guy you should have to give up the position.

I think a better standard would be "significant portion of the car", but more reasonable than the standards for straight lines.
On a straight you can't block once the FW is on your rear axle, that's too much for a corner.

I'd say if it's "front axle on cockpit level", you must leave room, if you don't it's a penalty.

[basti313]

Where is "braking"? Where the first one blinks or the second one? Or where they blinked last lap?
What is "cockpit level"? Headrest or steering wheel?

You want to replace a stupid cm rule with another stupid cm rule? Follows a nice chain, as this was done the last 10 years every year....

[dialtone]

Strictly speaking I don't have an issue with the apex part, I have an issue with:

1. not making the corner
2. the definition of when the overtake is done
3. that the car in front at the apex can push the car behind out of the track with no punishment whatsoever

Aside from the IMHO obvious sporting issue of incentivizing divebombs, and RBR made it a goal of theirs to have as many dive bombs as they could since Ricciardo was around.

The 3 items above do not make racing more interesting and create massive trains of slow cars because all the car ahead has to do is park in the middle of the road and push wide anyone. And if by any chance even pushing wide doesn't work, just slow down and get passed off track so the other car gets a penalty.

Instead of giving the car behind the right to dive bomb, which is dumb, limit the ability for the car in front to defend by pushing people left and right.