To me the overtake is not complete unless the attacking car is fully ahead (no overlap and probably out of the corner). Or to make it simpler, if the driver started the straight ahead (especially fully ahead) of the other driver, he is the defending driver until the other overtakes fully without overlap. Just because Ricciardo licks the stamp and sends it doesn't make him a defender at the moment he gets ahead of the defender. To me this seems like common sense.mwillems wrote: ↑23 Oct 2024, 10:18I guess there is the question of who is defending. Lando was actually ahead before the braking zone, if not by much. When is an overtake complete and was Max defending or actually attacking by going late on the brakes?
The rules around the apex are cut and dry and from that perspective, if Lando is the attacker then it has been applied correctly. But I am curious as to what "completes" an overtake, having a complete car length ahead before a braking zone itself does seem like it should be sufficient. I think that if there is a rule clarification, this is perhaps where it could be in part.
Interestingly, I remember asking this question before, of what completes an overtake... time to do some forum searching, when and why has this come up previously...?
Of course, but Verstappen also made many overtakes at the beginning of his career in the midst of the Mercedes domination and took many victories. At the same time, Piastri could learn consistency from Verstappen how to be on top race after race, and it's silly to compare Verstappen to Piastri who hasn't battle championship.Darth-Piekus wrote:In that case both Lando and especially Max have to learn from Oscar Piastri how to dive bomb without sending the other off the track.
At risk from being in the "wrong" thread here, but do agree they are part of racing in this current format.Jurgen von Diaz wrote: ↑23 Oct 2024, 10:31These dive bombs are best from Lando. If you don't try, you're hardly going to succeed. Dive bombs are wrongly stigmatized; they are hard racing and should be part of the game when fighting for a championship. That is one reason why 2021 was the best season of all time.CjC wrote:Yea a very valid video, not the best from Lando. Ive noticed how we haven’t seen anything like that since from Lando.Jurgen von Diaz wrote: ↑23 Oct 2024, 08:11Well-described divebombs. Here is an onboard video of those:
He’s learnt from Austria and moved on/ improved.
(This isn’t aimed at you) Folk forget that this is Landos first race winning season, he’s learning on the job, simple as.
I feel sorry for Lando sometimes, he gets the mick taken out of him for driving a ‘tractor’ at McLaren, he gets the mick taken out of him for not winning a race, now it seems he’s getting the mick taken out of him/ criticised for not leading the WDC.
Good job the salary is decent
Im talking pure pace. IMO Alonso is way more consistent than Hamilton and Russell, also imo Alonso would be a lot closer to Max in the championship than Lando, plus in this last race Alonso's racecraft is second to none and im sure he would of found a way past Max, or would of gotten Max a penalty.JPower wrote: ↑22 Oct 2024, 23:48Piastri has a ton of room to grow. I see no reason why his "stocks have fallen". He's no worse than Lando, Leclerc, or Russell in their second years.Big Gun wrote: ↑22 Oct 2024, 14:23Imo opinion watching it I knew Lando was gunna get a penalty because of how the stewarts ruled earlier incidents.
After been pushed wide Lando should of let Max pass out ahead of that corner and by the rules Max would of got the Penalty.
Think Alonso would of backed off so Max got the penalty, but Lando doesnt have that cunning yet of a Alonso or Max.
off topic, Piastri stocks have fallen imo. Lando is just faster in everyway.
1) Max, Lando, Lecerc
2) Hamilton, Alonso, Russel.
3) Sainz, Piastri, Hulk.
Piastri isnt in the top 6 of best drivers of this moment, just lacks about 2 tenths.
Current Alonso is not Tier 2 IMO. I'd argue that Russell and Hamilton's inconsistency this year might put them out of Tier 2 as well. Some of that is the car but they haven't been their best. Lando and Leclerc are however.
Brundle has always said that after 3 years, that thats basically the drivers level.Darth-Piekus wrote: ↑23 Oct 2024, 13:24I would say to leave Oscar alone. He is in just his second year and he will learn.
You guys remember when Norris took a beating from Sainz the first two years? I wouldn't be concerned about Piastri when he has performed at this level against a prime Norris. I still expect Piastri to give Norris a hard time next year because he has more balls than Norris when it comes down to wheel-to-wheel fighting and race starts. Like you said, Piastri is lacking raw speed compare to Norris.Big Gun wrote:Brundle has always said that after 3 years, that thats basically the drivers level.Darth-Piekus wrote: ↑23 Oct 2024, 13:24I would say to leave Oscar alone. He is in just his second year and he will learn.
So next year he gunna need to find 2 tenths to push Norris
I think he was fully ahead though, all of his car was in front of Verstappen's before the braking zone. Feel free to correct me, but this is my view and what I can see. So it is an interesting one. Totally fine with how they looked at it, but I feel like the idea of what completes an overtake is part of the grey area, I'd dearly love for someone to show me where this is defined. If it isn't defined then I have to say, I would be very baffled to understand a sport that values overtaking as much as anything else, but hasn't defined what an overtake is and what the rules are that define an overtake.FittingMechanics wrote: ↑23 Oct 2024, 10:54To me the overtake is not complete unless the attacking car is fully ahead (no overlap and probably out of the corner). Or to make it simpler, if the driver started the straight ahead (especially fully ahead) of the other driver, he is the defending driver until the other overtakes fully without overlap. Just because Ricciardo licks the stamp and sends it doesn't make him a defender at the moment he gets ahead of the defender. To me this seems like common sense.mwillems wrote: ↑23 Oct 2024, 10:18I guess there is the question of who is defending. Lando was actually ahead before the braking zone, if not by much. When is an overtake complete and was Max defending or actually attacking by going late on the brakes?
The rules around the apex are cut and dry and from that perspective, if Lando is the attacker then it has been applied correctly. But I am curious as to what "completes" an overtake, having a complete car length ahead before a braking zone itself does seem like it should be sufficient. I think that if there is a rule clarification, this is perhaps where it could be in part.
Interestingly, I remember asking this question before, of what completes an overtake... time to do some forum searching, when and why has this come up previously...?
But to make things simpler, they should remove the whole who is a defender thing. It should be a simple rule - you have to leave a space if there is an overlap. Regardless if you are defender or the attacker. I could accept need for some kind of "overlap percentage" but to me this seems like it will just make things that much messier, drivers will probably claim they were over/under the percentage and then the stewards will have to go and measure this. Just a mess. With "always leave a space when overlap" it is simple and the driver who is being forced wide can always just hold his line and the crash will be the fault of the other driver. It doesn't make sense to have different rules depending on who is the defender. Attacker has to leave the space, defender doesn't, it's just complicated.
Go with the simple solution (always leave a space), it will lead to better racing, more overtakes and action which is all positive.
That’s the thing, Alonso doesn’t have elite pure pace in qualifying. That’s never been his strong suit, even in his prime. He was not the qualifier Hamilton or Vettel was.Big Gun wrote: ↑23 Oct 2024, 13:11Im talking pure pace. IMO Alonso is way more consistent than Hamilton and Russell, also imo Alonso would be a lot closer to Max in the championship than Lando, plus in this last race Alonso's racecraft is second to none and im sure he would of found a way past Max, or would of gotten Max a penalty.JPower wrote: ↑22 Oct 2024, 23:48Piastri has a ton of room to grow. I see no reason why his "stocks have fallen". He's no worse than Lando, Leclerc, or Russell in their second years.Big Gun wrote: ↑22 Oct 2024, 14:23Imo opinion watching it I knew Lando was gunna get a penalty because of how the stewarts ruled earlier incidents.
After been pushed wide Lando should of let Max pass out ahead of that corner and by the rules Max would of got the Penalty.
Think Alonso would of backed off so Max got the penalty, but Lando doesnt have that cunning yet of a Alonso or Max.
off topic, Piastri stocks have fallen imo. Lando is just faster in everyway.
1) Max, Lando, Lecerc
2) Hamilton, Alonso, Russel.
3) Sainz, Piastri, Hulk.
Piastri isnt in the top 6 of best drivers of this moment, just lacks about 2 tenths.
Current Alonso is not Tier 2 IMO. I'd argue that Russell and Hamilton's inconsistency this year might put them out of Tier 2 as well. Some of that is the car but they haven't been their best. Lando and Leclerc are however.
I should clarify, that my ranking was more on Qualy Pace as for overall I have Max,Lando,Lecerc, Hamilton and Alonso still in tier 1.
Tier 1 drivers would beat any other driver in equal machinery thats not also in Tier 1 over a season. thats how I rate my Tier 1 guys.
Piastri just doesnt have the X factor, he is always behind Lando.