Renault race-fixing at Singapore 2008

[vall]

His cheating cost someone other than himself a championship quite likely.

I agree, the WDC was Massa's without that

Massa's Pitstop was not fouled because of PK's crash... remember FErrari had problem with the lighting system way before Singapore.

Whether or not PK crashed, Massa was going to have to come in for fuel at some point, dragging that fuel hose was his destiny

wrong!!! Because the 2 cars were coming essentially together (Kimi was waitng behind), Ferrari decided to change the lights manually by an operator and not the automatic system they had. The guy who operated the system made a mistake. If NPjr did not crash, the pit-spot would have been OK and Massa probably WDC.

[Scotracer]

I agree, the WDC was Massa's without that

Massa's Pitstop was not fouled because of PK's crash... remember FErrari had problem with the lighting system way before Singapore.

Whether or not PK crashed, Massa was going to have to come in for fuel at some point, dragging that fuel hose was his destiny

wrong!!! Because the 2 cars were coming essentially together (Kimi was waitng behind), Ferrari decided to change the lights manually by an operator and not the automatic system they had. The guy who operated the system made a mistake. If NPjr did not crash, the pit-spot would have been OK and Massa probably WDC.

You are still assuming that everything else would have gone Massa's way in the rest of the race. He could have stalled in the pits, he could have crashed into the wall like Kimi or his car could have DNF'd...anything could have happened. Same with Hamilton.

[vall]

That's quite strange, isn't it? He confessed, but did not the the immunity?

its confession by him in the meeting
FIA offered immunity IF Pat reveal all the secrets and all the people involved in the crash PRIOR to the WMSC meeting and before Renault fired him
Obviously he didnot want to do it as he might reveal some other Top Driver/Engineer's name??!!

oh well, I understand you don't like Alonso, but still, if you don't mind point us to what you make you think he was involved?

[vall]

wrong!!! Because the 2 cars were coming essentially together (Kimi was waitng behind), Ferrari decided to change the lights manually by an operator and not the automatic system they had. The guy who operated the system made a mistake. If NPjr did not crash, the pit-spot would have been OK and Massa probably WDC.

You are still assuming that everything else would have gone Massa's way in the rest of the race. He could have stalled in the pits, he could have crashed into the wall like Kimi or his car could have DNF'd...anything could have happened. Same with Hamilton.

That's way I said probably! Anything could have happened, but the things you mention usually do not happen that often to the top teams...

[ISLAMATRON]

wrong!!! Because the 2 cars were coming essentially together (Kimi was waitng behind), Ferrari decided to change the lights manually by an operator and not the automatic system they had. The guy who operated the system made a mistake. If NPjr did not crash, the pit-spot would have been OK and Massa probably WDC.

IS that why they had pit stop problems earlier in the year with the light system?

It was just not in Massa's destiny to be the 08 WDC.

[Pup]

No one knows for certain what Symonds was offered. It makes sense that he was offered something, and the rumor was immunity, but we shouldn't expect the rumor mill to be so subtle.

Judging from what we do know, it seems reasonable to assume that he was offered a deal for a 5-year ban and he took it. In addition to his confession, which the FIA statement tells us he provided, it seems likely that he corroborated Piquet's story as well, which gave the WMSC the proof it needed to find Flavio guilty.

There's a reason Renault went from protecting Flavio and denying everything to firing him and admitting guilt. That u-turn happened just when the rumor about Symond's immunity came out. There's also a reason that Flavio didn't even bother to put in a defense.

The FIA had what Renault and Flavio apparently considered was conclusive evidence, and it seems highly likely that Symonds provided it.

Of course we'll never know unless the full transcript of the hearing is released, and I think the FIA only does that when Max wants to make Ron Dennis look bad.

As for Alonso, I don't know why others think he was involved. Personally, I don't think he was involved in the planning, since there's no evidence that he was; but I do think that he was likely made aware of it at some point. I just can't see Flavio going through all that trouble and then not letting Alonso know what he did for him. In that light, it's actually kind of absurd to think that Alonso didn't know, at least at some point afterwards, and possibly before.

[mx_tifoso]

[Rob W]

A predictable result and a good solution in my view.

I would agree except for the non-fine.

What happens when, in the next race, a team lets a car out onto track with a piece of loose bodywork - which then flies off and almost goes into the crowd?

The team will get fined no doubt. What should they do? Go,.. OK, the worst cheating in F1 history resulted in no fine despite the massive effect on the race result not to mention the huge financial affect on various teams (negative and positive) and the potential to have injured/killed spectators.....

....but now our oversight on this body-party somehow warrants a $50,000 fine?

The lack fine is what is completely unjust in this result.

As an aside - A small irony in all of this is Nigel Stepney, the key person in the biggest case of espionage/cheating in F1 history, got off basically with losing his job and nothing else. No criminal proceedings have taken place and it's all gone away a little to quietly - including his long ban which was all-but removed. It confirms to me even more that he laid it down to the FIA and Ferrari "I have tons of evidence of years of illegal parts, designs etc plus of other shady activities which went on which I'm guessing you really don't want me to tell the world about - huh bitches?"

[Michiba]

A predictable result and a good solution in my view.

I would agree except for the non-fine.

What happens when, in the next race, a team lets a car out onto track with a piece of loose bodywork - which then flies off and almost goes into the crowd?

The team will get fined no doubt. What should they do? Go,.. OK, the worst cheating in F1 history resulted in no fine despite the massive effect on the race result not to mention the huge financial affect on various teams (negative and positive) and the potential to have injured/killed spectators.....

....but now our oversight on this body-party somehow warrants a $50,000 fine?

The lack fine is what is completely unjust in this result.

As an aside - A small irony in all of this is Nigel Stepney, the key person in the biggest case of espionage/cheating in F1 history, got off basically with losing his job and nothing else. No criminal proceedings have taken place and it's all gone away a little to quietly - including his long ban which was all-but removed. It confirms to me even more that he laid it down to the FIA and Ferrari "I have tons of evidence of years of illegal parts, designs etc plus of other shady activities which went on which I'm guessing you really don't want me to tell the world about - huh bitches?"

+1

Pure speculation here, but wonder if Flav is ruing not starting a rival series. If the FOTA series had gone ahead, none of this would even matter.

[ISLAMATRON]

And his cheating would continue... so that would have been better for the fans how?

[Michiba]

And his cheating would continue... so that would have been better for the fans how?

I'm not sure, perhaps getting rid of an autocratic ruler with malicious intentions would be a good start, though I'm sure you'll suggest that another would just take his place. I'm just putting it out there.

The judgements have been handed out with due process (according to the FIA as controlled by Max). Was it fair? Definitely not. The level of discussion with a myriad of views is testament to that.

So would cheating continue? I'm sure it would. But how the cheating would be handled must surely be better than the case here demonstrates.

I'm inclined to agree in principle with what SZ and others have opined, that this whole fiasco was just a means for Max to get rid of Flav. Sure, it's conjecture, but the indirect evidence is there to support it.

The cheating allegation was brought up last year, yet nothing was done (perhaps Max had nothing against Flav then)
You have the perpetrator of the incident (NP jr) getting off scott free, the team receiving what most have agreed to be a very light punishment.
The two biggest losers are Flav and PS (who is only being punished because he didn't accept the immunity).

[ISLAMATRON]

I meant Flav would continue cheating... Flav did not cheat because Max wanted to get rid of him... Flav cheated because he is a cheater and overall poor excuse for a human being... and even if MAx brought all this all up just to get Flav out then the outcome is 1 less cheater in F1.

[Michiba]

I meant Flav would continue cheating... Flav did not cheat because Max wanted to get rid of him... Flav cheated because he is a cheater and overall poor excuse for a human being... and even if MAx brought all this all up just to get Flav out then the outcome is 1 less cheater in F1.

Then why did the FIA not get rid of him last year when they found out? And why would Piquet be given immunity when he has willingly cheated, and why was Pat symonds given immunity?

And I'm pretty sure all teams cheat to some extent. If they can cheat and get away with it, I'm sure they are doing it.

[jon-mullen]

Flav could always find a driver to do his crashing, especially since he is both Team Manager and driver manager. Nelson is just 1 of many young drivers who under the circumstances would have collapsed under the pressure.

Really? Do you think Webber would do it?

You could've sold tickets to Webber's reaction to that.

[donskar]

Max got Flavio, nothing else mattered to him.

The rest is just window dressing.

Im pretty sure we havent heard the last of this and theres much more to the sad soap opera saga - what a wank

Ron Dennis was the first to go.

Now Max got Flavio.

Montezemolo next?

Nah. That's just paranoia. Right? Right?