2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Luscion]

Allison saying he doesnt think it was the upgrades that caused the spins in Austin but that they had the car too low, too stiff and the handling degraded because of it (8mins:45secs in). whole thing is worth a watch though

"It wasn't the upgrades, it's the way the upgrades need to be setup that made us fail". There's a sucker born every day.

If the updates only work when the car is low and stiff (as your simulation tools suggested would be best for the update), then the updates are actually the problem...

yea i agree, its not looking good for them for the rest of the year and the next. they were looking good going into the summer break but now its back to the "well, sometimes the car works, we just have to nail it" spiel

[atanatizante]

It's hopeless at this point, they will throw the towel next year right away if they are smart and focus 100% on 2026 car. ...

They throw the towel since the summer break after they realize they are too far back and treat the second part of the championship as an extended test session, bearing in mind that upgrades need to be engineered, tested, and manufactured at least 4 months before putting them on the car ...

So at the start of the year, they lost between 2 to 3 months to figure out the correlation issues, meaning they postponed until Monaco the front wing update that was designed back in the last days of 2023 and was programmed to start in the first races of the 2024 season ... The SPA upgrade was the first proper upgrade of the year, meaning it was designed after they thought they get rid of the correlation issues (somewhere in the spring months), something they suddenly realized was wrong after the Zanvort weekend ... This Austin update was started somewhere in the summer before the summer break and readjusted accordingly after the Zanvort fiasco weekend when they decided to focus on the next year car and treat the remaining races as a test session ...

What I think they also didn`t figure out until recently is that on this ground effect car era, every floor update meant to increase the DF needs to correlate to the suspension load levels at the track, something that is very hard to nail with the tools they are allowed to have nowadays as we could easily see on Ferrari floor upgrade at Barcelona and other teams on this particular area ... in addition, it also means they are at least 6 months behind them ...

This floor upgrade vs. suspension loads on the track is something that they finally acknowledge apparently when Toto was saying after Austin " It looks like the aerodynamics and the mechanics are not yet harmonizing properly ..." (https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... s-strafe//) and Allison in the race debrief saying he doesn't think it was the upgrades that caused the spins in Austin but that they had the car too low, too stiff ...

[Vanja #66]

This floor upgrade vs. suspension loads on the track is something that they finally acknowledge apparently when Toto was saying after Austin " It looks like the aerodynamics and the mechanics are not yet harmonizing properly ..." (https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... s-strafe//) and Allison in the race debrief saying he doesn't think it was the upgrades that caused the spins in Austin but that they had the car too low, too stiff ...

It's been 3 years of these rules and their actual gap to the front is basically the same as Bahrain 2022. Other than a few outliers, it's been around 70 races of balance issues, bouncing, sudden rear snaps, problems getting tyres into the window and general lack of pace. They've had more ATR than Red Bull and Ferrari, all the same test sessions available to them and we know they have all the equipment they could possibly need. There are no excuses on equipment and tools

First it was - we will get much faster when we sort out bouncing

Then it was - there's too much bouncing, rules need to change

Having floor rules changed and edges modified in their favour, they raise their car and shoot themselves in the foot - we can't get the balance right

Finally Lewis had enough - cockpit's too far forward, we need it more to the back

After moving it back and dropping out zero pods and mid wing - it's back to bouncing again

They sort out bouncing - poor lap time

Let's ditch radical front wing and swap it for a bunch of noodles to sort out the balance - it bloody works, we've been so stupid, we are so back, let's get more downforce in there asap!

They get more downforce and more noodles in their wing - poor lap times, poor balance again, same issues on two successive updste packages

After 3 years it's about time a grown up shows up and says - forget performance, let's make a stable and predictable car that can be pushed at all times and we'll build up performance from there. They don't even simulate all wing and ride height combinations to get a real aero map, they wing it on the go and wonder why they can't get the balance right!

[Luscion]

Heres hoping Kimi doesnt put Lewis' car into a wall tomorrow and they lose both upgrades

[SKYnRacing24]

Really appreciate that insight from atanatizante. It pretty much confirms what ive looked into here and there but Vanja pretty much called it word for word what i "personally " think about merc in there current guise. There's a couple of articles i come back to:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... eakBmfolE0

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... AG3tSMJR8L

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/russe ... /10606989/

Theres plenty more of course but this team just can't get hold of these regs, yes there behind in development compared to other teams but its the cycle of over promise and under deliver why ham fans and in particular Merc fans that are majorly annoyed. Then mix in with the fickle tyres, hit and miss reliability and experimental setups, yes....still experimenting since 2022. Tell me if any other team have been doing this to this extent. Its just a joke at this point. Now as Atanatizante mentioned, all this can be rectified in 2025 with the W16 but the question remains if the next car will have the same inherent issues as the W15 and particularly what this means for Antonelli who ideally needs a stable platform to perform with these unstable merc characteristics. They CAN'T be doing these extreme setups with him in the car and i doubt Russell will want to either.

James Allison was expected to re route the ship and maybe he will for 2025 but just looking at what positive traits this car has right now, i can't even mention one tbh. Poor one lap pace, average race pace. Works best when in a colder track temp window, drag issues. Yes ,yes they won 3 races but lets be honest, those were fluky with certain conditions and Mclaren not optimising there races.

With Mexico ,the previous visits with the W13 and W14 have worked well around there but i really don't know how the current car will run. Hoping at least they can get the upgrade to work but they will be 4th best still.

[AR3-GP]

Heres hoping Kimi doesnt put Lewis' car into a wall tomorrow and they lose both upgrades

I bet Hamilton is hoping he crumples it to bits...



George Russell's pace in the US GP with the old car was impressive (considering that Hamilton usually would have been a hair quicker). No tire deg. The baseline that Mercedes had before the summer break was a decent and stable package. It's just that it's no longer sufficient because others made another round of working updates and Mercedes did not. I don' fully subscribe to Vanja's theory. He has an axe to grind and failed to acknowledge some reasonable steps that Mercedes has made this year.

[AR3-GP]

After 3 years it's about time a grown up shows up and says - forget performance, let's make a stable and predictable car that can be pushed at all times and we'll build up performance from there. They don't even simulate all wing and ride height combinations to get a real aero map, they wing it on the go and wonder why they can't get the balance right!

This is nonsense. You have no special insight into the simulation methodology at Mercedes.

[Vanja #66]

This is nonsense. You have no special insight into the simulation methodology at Mercedes.

Hamilton said recently (something like) it's very hard for their engineers to make a good estimate of performance with so many RW, BW and floor ride height combinations, it's all so dependant on ride height, kerbs etc... That can only happen if you decide not to spend ATR on full aero mapping. If you decide you want to shoot in the dark, you'll end up hitting wrong targets

[Luscion]

Lewis saying theyve looked at the data and the car 3 wheeling, the ride height oscillating between 12 to 15mm causing the car to lose rear load and a 40kph tailwind is what cause his spin during the race

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hami ... /10666511/

[OverheatedTurbo]

Seems that they added a cutout on the innermost floor fence:https://x.com/reel_sonodas/status/18497 ... 65071?s=46
Adopting what Ferrari/Mclaren have.

[dren]

After 3 years it's about time a grown up shows up and says - forget performance, let's make a stable and predictable car that can be pushed at all times and we'll build up performance from there.

It's what Mclaren did and seemed to pay off...

[Vanja #66]

It's what Mclaren did and seemed to pay off...

Indeed. Ferrari too, though in their case Elkann understood a sweeping leadership change must happen first for new people to move away from poor practices of the past. Unlike them, Red Bull had a great team since 2010 and the only thing missing for devastating long-term domination was a competitive PU since 2014

[Dunlay]

If you intend to patronize my post, ask yourselves the question - "why are members (including me) here, in an internet forum called F1-technical" ? You will have your answer.
We are not here because we are experts, it's because we are trying to bounce our layman-enthusiast ideas with each other, to satiate our hunger to learn and discuss more about the 'machine' aspect of the sport.

As to your question :
Of course Mercedes know this, the drivers know this... their fundamental problem is they are too sensitive w.r.t tyre temperature as regards the car's grip balance. Whatever 'setup' they had optimized for 35C track temp, is not just becoming 'sub-optimal' (like it does for other teams) if the track temp rises to 40C, it's becoming undrivable. Their car's aero grip isn't working harmoniously with mechanical grip. Everyone knows this. Probably you don't. And the reason the issue strikes in 'of all the high speed corners, that's the one place such a simle issue strikes' is because T19 is the place where both steering angle and cornering speed are both together super-high.

For all of your explanation, trying to simplify the problem, the track temperature was 36C throughout Q3. Watch live timing replay on F1 app. George did two attempts in Q3, one where there was no such problem and he sets a time and the other when he crashed, despite track temps being the same. Guess what, the track temp was 35C in Sprint qualifying when that car was flying. Some basic research would help. It's better not to try and justify the oversimplification by using vague explanations. What happened in that particular incident is very peculiar and there must be far more intricate reason for it. That car is quite unpredictable and little changes are causing major behavioral issues. So I wouldn't try to sound like I know exactly why it happened, because I don't and I don't think most people know either.

The exact same thing as Russel's Q3 happened with Hamilton in the race, with a full tank of fuel.
Guess what the reason is ?

'oversteery balance' for a high speed corner.

Mercedes knows this, F1 viewers know this. It's got to do with tyre temps. Mercedes struggles when tyre temps go high on a hot track, their car is superb on cold tracks. That was the point I was making, I wasn't referring to the 35C or 40C as exact values in my previous post, I didn't intend to (forgot to phrase it as "say, the car is optimized for 35C...").

But why exactly is that happening ? thats the million $ question - the dark art of tyre 'optimal window'.

It's always wise to wait for some explanation to come from the team, rather than speculating with limited knowledge. Here is some info.

Lewis saying theyve looked at the data and the car 3 wheeling, the ride height oscillating between 12 to 15mm causing the car to lose rear load and a 40kph tailwind is what cause his spin during the race

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hami ... /10666511/

[Luscion]

Welp, Kimi has damaged Lewis' floor and its not expected to perform like it would before the damage

[dialtone]

Welp, Kimi has damaged Lewis' floor and its not expected to perform like it would before the damage

Are they just leaving him the broken part then? Don't they have the old spec to revert to?