2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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OverheatedTurbo
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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SKYnRacing24 wrote:
27 Oct 2024, 01:05
Sigh yeah the car felt good in FP3 blah blah. Its the same broken record. Whatever there doing (or not doing) they can't get the car in the window and on Lewis's side its been the case all season. At this moment in time after the season he has had in qualy, you have to point the finger to him. He can't drive this car the way he can and if he can't adapt to Ferrari's traits then its closed curtains. His driving style is not working with the W15. Fk knows what his engineers are doing but there probably tired with Lewis's demands in general.

Edit. Russell has the Miami spec floor , missed alot of running and still got the job done. Its not good enough. It really isn't
Yeah, Q3 has been Lewis’ weakness this season. We’ll need to wait until interlagos to have a clear picture on these updates when both cars run them and are in 1 piece. Merc should have brought the update package to Mexico instead of Austin to avoid the sprint shenanigans…oh well.

Luscion
Luscion
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Joined: 13 Feb 2023, 01:37

Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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SKYnRacing24 wrote:
27 Oct 2024, 01:05
Sigh yeah the car felt good in FP3 blah blah. Its the same broken record. Whatever there doing (or not doing) they can't get the car in the window and on Lewis's side its been the case all season. At this moment in time after the season he has had in qualy, you have to point the finger to him. He can't drive this car the way he can and if he can't adapt to Ferrari's traits then its closed curtains. His driving style is not working with the W15. Fk knows what his engineers are doing but there probably tired with Lewis's demands in general.

Edit. Russell has the Miami spec floor , missed alot of running and still got the job done. Its not good enough. It really isn't
Lewis missed fp1, got one lap on this weekend's mediums in fp2 and couldnt change the setup the entire session. But yea i think its a combination of him, driving style not working with this car and how peaky their car is
Last edited by Luscion on 27 Oct 2024, 01:18, edited 1 time in total.

Luscion
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Ham saying they changed the rear wing after fp3 to get more downforce but just went slower, he's still getting 3 wheeling, had no rear end and doesnt think Merc can fight the Ferrari's, Lando and Max tomorrow, something Russell also said. Im interested to see what Shov and Toto say about it

https://www.motorsportweek.com/2024/10/ ... d_id=60489

Jdn1327
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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SKYnRacing24 wrote:
27 Oct 2024, 01:05
Sigh yeah the car felt good in FP3 blah blah. Its the same broken record. Whatever there doing (or not doing) they can't get the car in the window and on Lewis's side its been the case all season. At this moment in time after the season he has had in qualy, you have to point the finger to him. He can't drive this car the way he can and if he can't adapt to Ferrari's traits then its closed curtains. His driving style is not working with the W15. Fk knows what his engineers are doing but there probably tired with Lewis's demands in general.

Edit. Russell has the Miami spec floor , missed alot of running and still got the job done. Its not good enough. It really isn't
Yeah Sky, but you have to ask yourself at some point...why is Lewis so underwhelming in Q3? Its his age...and it's not an insult...its basic biology...his race craft is impeccable but quali isn't his strongest suit anymore...

Waz
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Lewis is in denial

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SKYnRacing24
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Luscion wrote:
27 Oct 2024, 01:15






Ham saying they changed the rear wing after fp3 to get more downforce but just went slower, he's still getting 3 wheeling, had no rear end and doesnt think Merc can fight the Ferrari's, Lando and Max tomorrow, something Russell also said. Im interested to see what Shov and Toto say about it

https://www.motorsportweek.com/2024/10/ ... d_id=60489
People were mentioning why they were running with a medium downforce wing in practice. I guess with limited running they couldn't do back to back comparisons. The fact that he's still struggling to drive with this upgrade is annoying news for merc's correlation issues. The big word being " Correlation " its one thing that hasn't been mentioned and im tired of experts and pundits brushing it under the carpet. Yes they need to fine tune and optimise the package but as Toto alluded to, They are on the limit with cost cap now. They are in between a rock and a hard place especially as this has a detrimental effect on the W16 car. The updates/upgrades there putting on will carry over to next years car before the regs change. You have to be abit delusional to think they can turn it around. The car still has a small window of peak performance and they said that was the main area of focus of the W15.

Its the false promises that do it for me, no other team over promises and under delivers like merc do. Theres numerous articles about the ups and downs of merc progress which Vanja touched on a few pages back and nailed it on the head imo (Page 371)

Now with Lewis with the age he's at he's admitted to being stubborn for not adapting his driving style to the W15 and has struggled with ground effect cars in general (That RACE video made a great video on it). Yes we know he prefers understeer , likes stability and rotation at the rear, has a great feel for the brakes etc but something that gets over looked is his precision.

Drivers target corners like guns and Lewis has a great confidence in that area, unfortunately with age and reflexes coming into this its understandable why he not as sharp as he was. I feel the modern merc cars he's driven are away from his natural inherent pace in qualy that he doesn't want to rediscover a newer technique that possibly might take away from what makes him good in race pace after all these years. Now factor in a peaky Merc with fikkle tyres and you end up here.

Ultimately with the new 2025 Ferrari, his bed in period will be absolutely crucial. I can just imagine when he steps in for the first time in bahrain, he will be trialling nuisances and things in his driving within those first few laps, when Lewis first came here in 2013 he knew during testing he would have problems with there braking system. Even last years car he drove for promotional footage he knew it would have the same characteristics as the W13. He can't afford to not adapt to another car. If it has traits he can exploit with his natural driving style then good but if he can't, well theres nowhere to hide with Leclerc in the other car.

OT. I expect merc to have a lacklustre race. They will probably be in no mans land and there's often big gaps around this track because of the tyre and engine management.
“And that’s part of the game, is being able to be adaptive, and we’ve got this new car – I don’t know how it’s going to handle, hopefully she’s great.”

Hammerfist
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Merc is already toast in 25’. Looking back we will need to understand why that mid season surge happened but any upgrades they brought after that didn’t do the job and this weekend proved the new stuff really isn’t any faster that the old. Meanwhile you have Ferrari who brought very few upgrades and are lighting up the timesheets. I just think it’s very hard to add downforce to these cars. Just perfecting the balance should be the goal. Even mclarens latest upgrade didn’t do much. It seems fairly obvious what’s happening but Merc doesn’t seem to understand that.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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The philosphy is wrong. It's hs always been the same since 2014: make downforce when the car is low to the ground and ONLY when it's low to the ground. It's stupid because the moment there is a bump or cross wind the car gets destabilised.
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OverheatedTurbo
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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The performance see-saw will continue until the end of these rule set. They dug their grave when they doubled down on the zero side pods philosophy after that sham win at Brazil 2022. Unless they reinforce their aero department by poaching people from the top 3 or figure out why their aero map is so peaky, they will be on the back foot in 2025. That is the price they pay for investing on the wrong design philosophy. It is still insane to me that they haven’t made any changes to the diffuser roof this year. It seems there are still knowledge gaps in that area.

Dunlay
Dunlay
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Joined: 10 Mar 2024, 15:23

Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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OverheatedTurbo wrote:
27 Oct 2024, 15:12
The performance see-saw will continue until the end of these rule set. They dug their grave when they doubled down on the zero side pods philosophy after that sham win at Brazil 2022. Unless they reinforce their aero department by poaching people from the top 3 or figure out why their aero map is so peaky, they will be on the back foot in 2025. That is the price they pay for investing on the wrong design philosophy. It is still insane to me that they haven’t made any changes to the diffuser roof this year. It seems there are still knowledge gaps in that area.
I can't believe people still think zero pods were the root cause! Every successful car is built on a strong mechanical platform and that defines how aero works, including floor, diffuser et al. Their problem was always that they don't know how to build a car that performs well with a changeable ride height, both higher and lower and on varying circuit demands. Even in the past rule set where they dominated because of the engine, their cars ran extremely low on the ground. Now that all of the fancy suspension systems have been outlawed, one after the other and the engine advantage gone, they are stuck in making these, ultra floor dependent regulations work as the mechanical platform has no substance. Even if they build the exact replica of RB20 (aero, floor and diffuser) with Mercedes' own mechanical components, it likely works as bad as current W15 is.

OverheatedTurbo
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Joined: 21 Oct 2024, 13:28

Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Dunlay wrote:
27 Oct 2024, 15:57
OverheatedTurbo wrote:
27 Oct 2024, 15:12
The performance see-saw will continue until the end of these rule set. They dug their grave when they doubled down on the zero side pods philosophy after that sham win at Brazil 2022. Unless they reinforce their aero department by poaching people from the top 3 or figure out why their aero map is so peaky, they will be on the back foot in 2025. That is the price they pay for investing on the wrong design philosophy. It is still insane to me that they haven’t made any changes to the diffuser roof this year. It seems there are still knowledge gaps in that area.
I can't believe people still think zero pods were the root cause! Every successful car is built on a strong mechanical platform and that defines how aero works, including floor, diffuser et al. Their problem was always that they don't know how to build a car that performs well with a changeable ride height, both higher and lower and on varying circuit demands. Even in the past rule set where they dominated because of the engine, their cars ran extremely low on the ground. Now that all of the fancy suspension systems have been outlawed, one after the other and the engine advantage gone, they are stuck in making these, ultra floor dependent regulations work as the mechanical platform has no substance. Even if they build the exact replica of RB20 (aero, floor and diffuser) with Mercedes' own mechanical components, it likely works as bad as current W15 is.
It is still a factor because they are working with a totally different chasis vs the zero pod chasis? They only have been fiddling with this one for one year while the others have been iterating since 2022. It is part of the problem.

Luscion
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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https://www.f1oversteer.com/news/merced ... ltons-car/

Bernie Collins on why Lewis Hamilton might be struggling compared to George Russell:
I don’t know if he is trying to say that, but definitely there’s been, we’ve seen it so much, every time we’re in the pit lane in between P3 and qualifying, or regularly when you’re in the pit lane between P3 and qualifying, they’re tearing Lewis’s car apart to make some changes, and George is pretty happy.

I don’t know if that’s an overreaction between Lewis and the engineers to whatever’s happening in P3 and George is just more settled.

We talk a lot about letting the track come to you, let the grip change – so, maybe there’s a little bit of that, and such fine margins here, a little bit of tyre temperature, a little bit of brake temperature makes all the difference and it’s getting all of that together working.

I don’t think there’s any malice on behalf of anyone in that team, they’re working so hard to get it together, they want a good year for Lewis.

Jdn1327
Jdn1327
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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I know lewis doesn't have the optimum state of the floor...but surely the old spec car can't be that much faster than the new one...merc have really duffed this up

Luscion
Luscion
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Jdn1327 wrote:
27 Oct 2024, 22:33
I know lewis doesn't have the optimum state of the floor...but surely the old spec car can't be that much faster than the new one...merc have really duffed this up
floor doesnt seem to be working well, dont know if its the upgrade or its because all they could do was repair and not repalce it
Lewis Hamilton: “I’ve got graining on the rears and I feel the floor giving up in certain corners.”

NoDivergence
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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This car (and Mercedes) are a joke. Ferrari is starting to kick ass