2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Tvetovnato]

I actually only half agree with the reasoning from Stewards here.

Lando was 100% making the corner in T4 but he was so deep in T4 that he was gonna lose 2+ seconds to just turn the car and go back on the throttle out of T5 while Max was going to be able to make it more comfortably had he not totally fumbled the corner in irreparable ways. You can't judge this as a complete pass from Lando after you didn't judge the pass complete in Austin.

Lando definitely passed off track here and he shouldn't be getting an easy escape because he was pushed off, he gained 2+s by cutting that chicane even after giving the place back.

The key though is that Lando would have made the corner in T4 had he not been shoved off. Therefore it’s on Max to set himself up for a re-pass out of T5 when Lando would have had a too tight line into that corner. And this, ladies and gents, is what is called racing - battling each other on track by using the right strategy to place your car in the best way while giving room to your opponent. Lando wasn’t given room so he had to bail out and had all the right to keep that place.

So how does that reconcile with a week ago when Lando wasn't given room into T12 so he had to bail out and kept the position, and he was given a 10 second penalty? Or when George pushes Bottas off in COTA, didn't stay on track himself (Max stayed on track in Mexico), kept the position gained and was only given a 5 second penalty.

I understand Lando was ahead at the apex this week but not in COTA, but he didn't complete the overtake until he was off track either time.

He completed the overtake off track because he was sent off track against his will because of a driver who refuses to yield, when he had all the right in the world to stay on track. That’s the whole point.

[rbirules]

The key though is that Lando would have made the corner in T4 had he not been shoved off. Therefore it’s on Max to set himself up for a re-pass out of T5 when Lando would have had a too tight line into that corner. And this, ladies and gents, is what is called racing - battling each other on track by using the right strategy to place your car in the best way while giving room to your opponent. Lando wasn’t given room so he had to bail out and had all the right to keep that place.

So how does that reconcile with a week ago when Lando wasn't given room into T12 so he had to bail out and kept the position, and he was given a 10 second penalty? Or when George pushes Bottas off in COTA, didn't stay on track himself (Max stayed on track in Mexico), kept the position gained and was only given a 5 second penalty.

I understand Lando was ahead at the apex this week but not in COTA, but he didn't complete the overtake until he was off track either time.

He completed the overtake off track because he was sent off track against his will because of a driver who refuses to yield, when he had all the right in the world to stay on track. That’s the whole point.

First, which incident are you talking about? Both instances Lando completed the overtake off track and kept the position over Max. In COTA he got a 5 second penalty (should have been 10 but Max went off too so it was reduced to 5 seconds) for doing this. In Mexico Max gets a penalty for pushing a driver off, but Lando gets nothing for keeping a position gained while off track. Unless being ahead at the apex means you can overtake off track and keep a position (but then what does that imply about the T8 incident?) if forced off.

In COTA Russell's penalty was reduced from 10 seconds to 5 because it wasn't deliberate (despite being the overtaking driver and sending it up the inside) and he was in control of his car (despite going completely off track). In Mexico Max was defending, and pinned to the inside line. He kept 95% of his car on track but lost the position to Norris (again, completed off track) who he pushed off, but Max gets 10 seconds. How did Max not control his car better than George in those two incidents? Max is on the inside defending, George goes for a overtake and doesn't get to the apex first, how is that not deliberate? I just can't reconcile some of these events and the fallout (i.e. penalties) from them.

[Jdn1327]

Could the penalties for cfd hours be manifesting itself now?

Seems more like they simply have lost direction without Newey. Even if Newey wasn't penning all the designs nowadays, he was still important for his ability to recognize issues and providing a successful development course for solving them. He was also very good at providing direction in terms of setup and how the cars needed to be ran on a given weekend. Both these things Red Bull have struggled with since he left and I cant see that's just some crazy coincidence.

RBR put on a brave face when Newey left but the effect is clear. I don't blame the teams decline solely on that...but a lot of key personnel have left. That added to the penalty of less cfd time has really hurt them.

[Vanja #66]

Were you watching a different race??

Guys, honestly, I'm not interested in redditing and twittering here. Driver ying yang does not interest me. I watched the race and rewatched both cases multiple times

If you have specific arguments to counter my point, by all means write them down and lets discuss

[langedweil]

Well the other two stewards were French and a Mexican and they fully agreed with the ruling, but I suppose there`s some bias in them as well! I mean, have some of you even read the what they said.

https://i.postimg.cc/YqvHs5Dq/t8.png

How do you gain a position if you're already ahead ?

You haven't completed the overtake, you were just entitled to the space but since you didn't manage to stay on track, the overtake is not complete and you need to give back the position. It's quite simple.

Yeah well, as Lando was ahead after T5 he already had his position.
So what is there to give back then !?
There was no issue as Nor gained his position ..

[Emag]

This is what would have happened if Max was a normal driver. The only reason Lando could not complete the overtake is because he was pushed off completely.

[Jurgen von Diaz]

This is what would have happened if Max was a normal driver. The only reason Lando could not complete the overtake is because he was pushed off completely.

Yes, Max isn't a normal driver. He is soon to be a 4x champ, becoming a legend like Senna and Schumacher by being a dick like them.

[Vettel165]

This is what would have happened if Max was a normal driver. The only reason Lando could not complete the overtake is because he was pushed off completely.

Yeah agree, he is much better than being normal. This is what I like about him, he is always on the limit/edge, just like Senna, Michael were. Normal is boring. Sometimes it doesnt work, but when it does it looks amazing. Lets move on.

[Watto]

Were you watching a different race??

Guys, honestly, I'm not interested in redditing and twittering here. Driver ying yang does not interest me. I watched the race and rewatched both cases multiple times

If you have specific arguments to counter my point, by all means write them down and lets discuss

I do think Lando worked the rules against Max here.

I think he would have just made T4 but would have been heavily compromised for T5.

Carried the extra speed into T4 to get to the apex ahead of Max knowing Max would push him wide - even to the point I agree Lando has gone in probably willing to accept he may not make the corner.

The only question I have - and this probably goes back to the point of McLarens protest, Was Lando considered the attacker here. Max did make the corner.

I think the penalty was there but I do think the the media making Max more a villan than he really was.

[AR3-GP]

I think I understand why they are waiting until Thursday to decide on taking the engine. They are waiting for the weather forecast. If it's wet, they won't take the engine since laptime is less sensitive to engine power in wet conditions. If it's dry, they'll take it. If it's wet and they don't take the engine, they'll just take it in Las Vegas where it will be dry and there's long DRS straights.

[Watto]

I think I understand why they are waiting until Thursday to decide on taking the engine. They are waiting for the weather forecast. If it's wet, they won't take the engine since laptime is less sensitive to engine power in wet conditions. If it's dry, they'll take it. If it's wet and they don't take the engine, they'll just take it in Las Vegas where it will be dry and there's long DRS straights.

Makes sense having a quick look at the forecast. But I wonder if the potential for rain makes it more or less likely to upgrade this weekend?

[AR3-GP]

I think I understand why they are waiting until Thursday to decide on taking the engine. They are waiting for the weather forecast. If it's wet, they won't take the engine since laptime is less sensitive to engine power in wet conditions. If it's dry, they'll take it. If it's wet and they don't take the engine, they'll just take it in Las Vegas where it will be dry and there's long DRS straights.

Makes sense having a quick look at the forecast. But I wonder if the potential for rain makes it more or less likely to upgrade this weekend?

If it's wet, there will not be DRS to help with overtaking. Visibility will be poor. Risk for a 1st lap crash in the wet starting from the middle of the pack is also very high.

They should have taken the engine back in Monza.

[Watto]

I think I understand why they are waiting until Thursday to decide on taking the engine. They are waiting for the weather forecast. If it's wet, they won't take the engine since laptime is less sensitive to engine power in wet conditions. If it's dry, they'll take it. If it's wet and they don't take the engine, they'll just take it in Las Vegas where it will be dry and there's long DRS straights.

Makes sense having a quick look at the forecast. But I wonder if the potential for rain makes it more or less likely to upgrade this weekend?

If it's wet, there will not be DRS to help with overtaking. Visibility will be poor. Risk for a 1st lap crash in the wet starting from the middle of the pack is also very high.

They should have taken the engine back in Monza.

Yeah that was what I was thinking. Just wondered ever so slightly if it was going to be a wet/dry race if the extra pit stop might hide the penalty a little

[PapayaFan481]

Were you watching a different race??

Guys, honestly, I'm not interested in redditing and twittering here. Driver ying yang does not interest me. I watched the race and rewatched both cases multiple times

If you have specific arguments to counter my point, by all means write them down and lets discuss

OK. T4: Lando was 100% making that corner until Max forced him off the road. If Lando didn't open up his steering to avoid Max then they collide. It is that simple and someone has already kindly provided still frames of the corner in the other thread to support this. T5 UNDER THE CURRENT RULES, is a separate corner and has no bearing.

T8: Even Max has offered no defence there, only complained about the penalty. So you seem to disagree with even the driver you're defending. When experienced F1 drivers up and down the grid are calling the T8 move "dangerous" and crossing the line, why do you think you know better than them?

[Vanja #66]

OK. T4: Lando was 100% making that corner until Max forced him off the road. If Lando didn't open up his steering to avoid Max then they collide. It is that simple and someone has already kindly provided still frames of the corner in the other thread to support this. T5 UNDER THE CURRENT RULES, is a separate corner and has no bearing.

T8: Even Max has offered no defence there, only complained about the penalty. So you seem to disagree with even the driver you're defending. When experienced F1 drivers up and down the grid are calling the T8 move "dangerous" and crossing the line, why do you think you know better than them?

In T4 Norris opened up his steering wheel and immediately turned right to cut T5 to overtake Max. He had no intention of making T5, but I can't say of his intention to leave track right after T4 even though he'd have to apply brakes a lot more to have any hope of making T5.

As for T8, Norris was 50m earlier on brakes than he was the next lap (Max was on brakes at about the same place as usual, though couple of meters early as well) and instead of going wide to switch back he keeps himself alongside Max.



How did Max force Norris off track if Norris was so far back by the time they reach the track limit? What prevented him going right and wide a bit to turn left (yellow line) and let Max look like a total amateur for going off on his own? Nothing at all, it was his own choice to stick alongside Max and run wide, he was completely behind Max and therefore couldn't have been pushed wide because Max was already ahead. 10s penalty for Max has no legs to stand on, other than steward bias



I have no idea what you're on about all drivers calling the move dangerous, no one was asked. And if they were, they had no access to full telemetry or full video recordings like stewards do when they make their decisions

So Horner argued that Lando should have gotten a penalty for basically doing what Max did last week without getting a penalty?

Seems about right for Mr Horner.

Not sure what you're on about mate. Lando got a (reduced) penalty for overtaking outside the track last week and should have gotten it now too. It was cut by 5s in Austin because stewards acknowledged he was forced outside the track, but still got 5s because he decided to stick with an illegal overtake. Did he not make an overtake outside the track in T5 in Mexico?