2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[catent]

Average Leclerc bottlejob...

Jesus, where do all these people come from?

Leclerc has an unhealthy amount of situations where he has made silly mistakes when under pressure from a driver behind. This is not normal.

It's one thing to be overtaken by a legitimately faster driver. That's ok. It's another to simply give up a position because of a silly mistake. This is embarrasing and even more embarassing for Leclerc to continue doing this after years in F1. A driver who cannot hold his own on the track against other drivers will never be champion.

I seem to recall Leclerc holding off Piastri in a much faster McLaren for 15-20+ laps at Zandvoort. I recall Leclerc holding off Verstappen and Norris in faster cars for the final stretch at Spa. What about his drives at Monaco and Monza?

Can you cite these frequent mistakes with drivers behind you're referring to? I don't see them. I'd like to see which instances you're referencing. (Of course, if he was not defending hard, I'm sure someone would criticize him for giving up positions too easily).

Leclerc has been shocking consistent for the better part of 12+ months (maximizing the car even when it's not been the fastest). He's taken his incredible one-lap pace, and developed some darn impressive tire management, race pace, and racecraft to go with it.

To call his driving (as of late) anything other than consistently great is wrong.

[catent]

It's one thing to be overtaken by a legitimately faster driver. That's ok. It's another to simply give up a position because of a silly mistake. This is embarrasing and even more embarassing for Leclerc to continue doing this after years in F1. A driver who cannot hold his own on the track against other drivers will never be champion.

I agree that it is a limitation for him. Japan '22 (last lap). Japan '24 (went off in degner 2 when under pressure from Perez in the first stint). Vegas '23 (went off under pressure from Perez). France '22. Miami '22 vs Verstappen. Today, almost losing it in front of Norris but that is the beauty of the sport. All the drivers have their limitations. They are all different. In spite of this, he will still win something. Sainz managed to win today but he is not perfect either.

There's quite a difference between France '22 and Japan '24, so not all missteps while defending are created equal. Going deep, running off track, locking up, etc, while defending hard is perfectly common; entirely losing control of the car and losing considerable on-track time or DNF'ing is not common.

Taking the Japan '24 example, one could compile similar lists for most every other F1 driver; those who do not have such a list are likely criticized for giving up positions too easily and not defending hard enough.

[AR3-GP]

It's one thing to be overtaken by a legitimately faster driver. That's ok. It's another to simply give up a position because of a silly mistake. This is embarrasing and even more embarassing for Leclerc to continue doing this after years in F1. A driver who cannot hold his own on the track against other drivers will never be champion.

I agree that it is a limitation for him. Japan '22 (last lap). Japan '24 (went off in degner 2 when under pressure from Perez in the first stint). Vegas '23 (went off under pressure from Perez). France '22. Miami '22 vs Verstappen. Today, almost losing it in front of Norris but that is the beauty of the sport. All the drivers have their limitations. They are all different. In spite of this, he will still win something. Sainz managed to win today but he is not perfect either.

There's quite a difference between France '22 and Japan '24, so not all missteps while defending are created equal. Going deep, running off track, locking up, etc, while defending hard is perfectly common; entirely losing control of the car and losing considerable on-track time or DNF'ing is not common.

Taking the Japan '24 example, one could compile similar lists for most every other F1 driver; those who do not have such a list are likely criticized for giving up positions too easily and not defending hard enough.

I made that comment almost 2 days ago. I regret it more than enough now...

[deadhead]

SAI fairs better in qualifying than in the races... rather surprising

[Paa]

Someone on Reddit calculated how much time Leclerc lost behind backmarkers.

Colapinto: It's unfair to him. He didn't slow Leclerc in any way, Leclerc passed him on lap 49 just as Colapinto was coming out of the pits. At that moment a blue flag for Colapinto appeared on the panel, but Leclerc was already ahead of him.

Lawson: Leclerc caught Lawson on lap 56 and Lawson got the first blue flag on the straight in sector 5 and at that point Leclerc had a 3.2 second lead over Norris. Lawson went through 7 blue flags and Leclerc didn't pass him until sector 13 before turn 12. Because of this, Leclerc lost 0.4 seconds, the lead was 2.8 seconds.

At the same time, Norris passed Colapinto on the long straight at the start of lap 57 and reduced the lead to 2.3 seconds thanks to DRS.

Stroll: Leclerc caught Stroll in Turn 2 on Lap 58, Stroll got the first blue flag in Turn 3 and Leclerc's lead was 2.2 seconds. Stroll went through 9 blue flags and Leclerc passed him as well as Lawson before turn 12. The margin over Norris was 1.9 seconds.

Due to Stroll slowing, Norris caught him and on the exit of the last corner, Stroll had a blue flag for Norris as well. Norris passed him as well as Colapinto on the long straight and thanks to DRS was right behind Leclerc, who was now only 1.2 seconds ahead at the first corner.

Verdict: Leclerc was very unlucky for the backmarkers. Lawson and Stroll ignored 7 and 9 blue flags respectively, and Leclerc always overtook them before slow turns in the stadium.

On the other hand Norris was lucky as he had double DRS twice on the long straight and in sector 5 as well, as the two DRS have the same detection zone. He passed Colapinto and Stroll on the long straight, Lawson in sector 5. Leclerc didn't have a single DRS because of this, Norris had DRS up to 6 times (3 times on the first DRS, 3 times on the second DRS).

Credit to user AlphaArietis91.

Leclerc said he thinks he would've lost position to Norris eventually regardless of the lapped cars, and I'm inclined to agree - but even so, that doesn't mean we can't question why they are blatantly ignoring blue flags. To me, they're two separate issues.

Btw, why do you get DRS from a lapped car? I never understood this to be honest, it is a stupid rule. DRS is to help overtaking, not really needed for lapping. Is there any rationale behind? Or is it just lazy programming, as the software can't differentiate if the car ahead is lapped or not?

[AR3-GP]

https://postimg.cc/D472f5bW


SAI fairs better in qualifying than in the races... rather surprising

I don't doubt the general conclusion, but isn't it a bit suspicious that according to this chart, Sainz has never had a "strategy fail" in 4 seasons at Ferrari?

They also put Lec brake issue for Bahrain, but Sainz also had brake issues.

[yooogurt]

They also put Lec brake issue for Bahrain, but Sainz also had brake issues.

Races where someone had a problem don't count.

[dialtone]

Do we think that the fact sainz best WDC being 5th and Leclerc being 2nd had anything to do with it?

Or that aside from 2021 the competition between them has been utterly one sided? Mexico is the first time in the last 9 races that Sainz beats Leclerc.

26 poles for Charles, 6 for Sainz. 41 podiums vs 25.

We don’t need to go race by race, Lec is the better driver and more consistent.

[JPower]

SAI fairs better in qualifying than in the races... rather surprising

Not surprising at all. Across their time together, Leclerc is about .1% quicker in qualifying and about 0.15% in race pace. Sainz has been fairly close in qualifying for his entire span at Ferrari. His one lap pace was underrated because Lando pretty much matched him from the jump at McLaren and Leclerc was coming off a dismantling of Seb in 2020. We now know that Lando is actually a very, very quick driver over one lap.

However, he's sometimes struggled with tire management since joining Ferrari which is something I've yet to figure out. Never had an issue at McLaren or his other teams. To his credit, that's obvious something he's worked at as he's closed the race pace gap massively in the past 2 seasons vs the first 2, at least according to my calcs.

26 poles for Charles, 6 for Sainz. 41 podiums vs 25.

During their time together:

Leclerc - 6 wins/29 podiums/19 poles
Sainz - 4 wins/24 podiums/6 poles

Either way, I think that's a fairly good balance. Leclerc is definitely the better driver, but I think Sainz has massively overachieved the projections people had for him when he was announced.

[Xyz22]

SAI fairs better in qualifying than in the races... rather surprising

Not surprising at all. Across their time together, Leclerc is about .1% quicker in qualifying and about 0.15% in race pace. Sainz has been fairly close in qualifying for his entire span at Ferrari. His one lap pace was underrated because Lando pretty much matched him from the jump at McLaren and Leclerc was coming off a dismantling of Seb in 2020. We now know that Lando is actually a very, very quick driver over one lap.

However, he's sometimes struggled with tire management since joining Ferrari which is something I've yet to figure out. Never had an issue at McLaren or his other teams. To his credit, that's obvious something he's worked at as he's closed the race pace gap massively in the past 2 seasons vs the first 2, at least according to my calcs.

From 21 to 23 the gaps are a bit higher on average (depending on different methods), around 0.15% in qualifying and slightly over 0.2% in race trim.
Soon we'll have the entire 2024 data as well.

[JPower]

From 21 to 23 the gaps are a bit higher on average (depending on different methods), around 0.15% in qualifying and slightly over 0.2% in race trim.
Soon we'll have the entire 2024 data as well.

Eh, mine do not reflect that at least on the qualifying side. But, everyone has different way of doing things.

[ScuderiaLeo]

I don't think we need to debate about who's the better driver or who is more consistent. This forum largely agrees Leclerc is one of the best drivers, and the H2H shows this. Leclerc has also had notably worse luck, both operational and mechanical, during their period as teammates. (I don't agree with that chart completely as it seems biased toward Leclerc but I believe even if you did an unbiased roundup of non-driver errors, Leclerc would be far ahead.)

At the same time, Sainz is a very capable driver, and is one of the best as well when you look at all 20. Just not in that top tier. It's a bit insulting to Sainz to imply he's just an average driver or that he's not good just because he isn't Leclerc. He's shown much more than that. Especially because he has improved lots since 2021. Even just during this year, his tire management has improved greatly.

Qualifying has always been his strength in my opinion. However, his teammates have coincidentally been among the best qualifiers of this era. Verstappen, Hulkenberg, Norris, Leclerc. If you put Sainz next to the majority of the grid he would destroy them, especially in qualifying.

Unrelated to Sainz. As anticipated, no upgrades for Brazil. https://x.com/FerrariF1FRA/status/1851207151005356453

Additionally, a reminder that Interlagos has been resurfaced so expect low grip. https://x.com/felipemendes/status/1849136970699510150

[Vanja #66]

https://postimg.cc/D472f5bW


SAI fairs better in qualifying than in the races... rather surprising

Objective methodology, but the reality is a bit more towards Leclerc in races. Monaco 21, Spa 21, Australia 22, Spain 22, Monaco 22, Baku 22, Britain 22, Austria 22, Hungary 22, Japan 22, Bahrain 23, Monaco 23 - all of those races had Leclerc clearly ahead and quicker and no realistic chance of Sainz finishing ahead in normal circumstances. I actually have no idea why Spa 21, Japan 22 and Monaco 23 aren't counted, Sainz spun on his own at Suzuka and Leclerc's grid drop in Monaco was overturned with Sainz' spin there.

Similarly, France 21, France 22, Spain 23, Austria 24 and Britain 24 should objectively be awarded to Sainz.

Should be counted as 49-18 objectively in races, those additional 10 races where Leclerc would have been ahead in normal circumstances not included.

Do we think that the fact sainz best WDC being 5th and Leclerc being 2nd had anything to do with it?

I'm hoping for P4 in WDC for Sainz this year and I think we may yet see it, would help a whole lot in WCC fight

[f1316]

For all that I agree Leclerc is the stronger driver - and I’ve had my frustrations with Sainz over the years - I’m slightly disappointed to see him go and don’t know if it’ll be for the best. I feel like we’re getting the 2010 version of Michael and not sure it’s in either the short or long term interests of the team.

I hope to be proven wrong and hopefully well at least get fair treatment from the British press for a change!

[nico5]

I think Sainz has massively overachieved the projections people had for him when he was announced.

Yes and no. He's been a good driver but the one time Ferrari needed him to perform and be there when they had the equal-best car, he wasn't there and it was so frustrating (ok 2022 was a total mess so not completely his fault but he was slower than a good Perez for the first half of the season).