Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
User avatar
chrisc90
41
Joined: 23 Feb 2022, 21:22

Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

Post

There is another storm brewing in the paddock. Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres to prevent them from overheating during the race.




Seems a bit strange given the tyre is sealed airtight. But someone mentioned it has happened in the past.


*Thread to keep the discussion from cluttering team threads*
Mess with the Bull - you get the horns.

Luscion
Luscion
98
Joined: 13 Feb 2023, 01:37

Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

Post

FIA investigates the allegations
In Brazil, it was once again Red Bull's turn in the role of accuser. This time it was about filling the tires with water. The trick is supposed to help cool the tires better from the inside over long distances. The water is to be injected via the valves. Allegedly, even small amounts achieve the desired effect. Several teams are said to benefit from this practice during long runs, including McLaren.

The FIA is already investigating the allegations. There were no suspicious observations at the last two races in Austin and Mexico City. Pirelli would have to report the slightest irregularities to the FIA technical commissioners. According to the Italian tire manufacturer, however, there has not been a single suspicious incident this year.

Neither Pirelli nor the FIA want to comment officially on the case. However, there is talk behind closed doors that the story is just another storm in a teacup.
How does the water get into the tire?
When applying the trick, the first question must be how the water is supposed to get into the tires in the first place without Pirelli noticing. And how the water is supposed to disappear again after the race, apart from through evaporation. Tires and rims are coded. The FIA randomly assigns the tires to the rims reported by the teams. Mounting and demounting of the tires is carried out by Pirelli's service technicians.

Once the tires have been fitted, no team is allowed to tamper with them. The teams themselves do not have the tools to remove tires from the rim and put them back on. Tires cannot be reused after they have been removed once. The only access point through which water can be filled in is therefore the valve. But injecting fluids unnoticed would be extremely difficult with the number of watchdogs and Pirelli engineers in the garages.

Such a trick would also be highly risky. If the water does not evaporate before the tires are removed in the three to four hours after the race, suspicion is quickly aroused. Red Bull allegedly experimented with water in the tires many years ago. At that time, the trick was not yet expressly prohibited. But the FIA promptly closed this loophole. In the defending champion's camp, it is now assumed that former Red Bull employees have unpacked and refined this trick again in their new teams.

Alex_Z
Alex_Z
0
Joined: 05 Mar 2023, 00:16

Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

Post

As this is coming from RBR we can confidently dismiss this as nonsense. Next.

FittingMechanics
FittingMechanics
16
Joined: 19 Feb 2019, 12:10

Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

Post

Seems like an impossible feat. Especially if FIA tried to find it happening in Austin and Mexico and couldn't.

CjC
CjC
11
Joined: 03 Jul 2012, 20:13

Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

Post

Wow. Red bull sure don’t enjoy loosing
Just a fan's point of view

User avatar
Vanja #66
1562
Joined: 19 Mar 2012, 16:38

Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

Post

The last sentence in that report is crucial, clearly there's all sorts of rival personel poaching in McLaren. Could be nothing, like the RB bib story. It could also be very much something, McLaren obviously does not shy away from making illegal rear wings, so why not an illegal tyre procedure
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

User avatar
_cerber1
258
Joined: 18 Jan 2019, 21:50
Location: From Russia with love

Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

Post

I wonder if Red Bull has heard anything about unsprung mass?

FittingMechanics
FittingMechanics
16
Joined: 19 Feb 2019, 12:10

Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

Post

Vanja #66 wrote:
02 Nov 2024, 20:14
The last sentence in that report is crucial, clearly there's all sorts of rival personel poaching in McLaren. Could be nothing, like the RB bib story. It could also be very much something, McLaren obviously does not shy away from making illegal rear wings, so why not an illegal tyre procedure
RB bib story definitely was not "nothing".

FittingMechanics
FittingMechanics
16
Joined: 19 Feb 2019, 12:10

Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

Post

_cerber1 wrote:
02 Nov 2024, 20:15
I wonder if Red Bull has heard anything about unsprung mass?
I'm also not sure how small amount of water inside the tire would help cool it. After the water heats up (which should be very quickly) it just coat the interior of the tire with small amount of thermal mass. It may make spikes less strong but surely the amount of water inside the tire cannot be big enough to offset the mass of the tire.

Plus all these cars are overweight or close to it.

the EDGE
the EDGE
67
Joined: 13 Feb 2012, 18:31
Location: Bedfordshire ENGLAND

Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

Post

Someone needs to explain the science in that… For a start, I would have thought the water would get hot and expand, increasing the pressure within the tire, and that would be the last thing a team would want? As they always complain, the tyre pressures are too high

User avatar
Darth-Piekus
-1
Joined: 28 Apr 2018, 15:27
Location: Greece

Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

Post

Red Bull is starting to become tiring with that constant crying about every single thing. They sound like sore losers at this point prefering to complain all the time instead of sitting down and work.

User avatar
bananapeel23
9
Joined: 14 Feb 2023, 22:43
Location: Sweden

Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

Post

Alex_Z wrote:
02 Nov 2024, 20:11
As this is coming from RBR we can confidently dismiss this as nonsense. Next.
If you have nothing to add to the discussion. Please say nothing at all.

Personally I think it sounds off. You would think a bunch of unsprung mass in the tyres would be bad?

Is the idea that the water evaporates inside the tyres and that the energy required for a phase change cools the carcass and then the resulting steam keeps absorbing some of the heat?

User avatar
SilviuAgo
3
Joined: 15 Aug 2020, 16:08

Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

Post

I heard that they are trasporting through drivers helmets some white powder from Mexico to Brasil.
C'mon...RB looks like a disperate team trying all the bullshi(r)t only to move the attention from a team that last year won 23 out of 24 and this year is beaten by "the sister" team. What a pathetic management bringing this accusation on.

TimW
TimW
36
Joined: 01 Aug 2019, 19:07

Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

Post

https://trid.trb.org/View/391119#:~:tex ... per%20cent.

Several percent would alter the thermal behaviour of the rubber. And when it is absorbed water would not be detected.

There could be something there. Remember that it is a game of marginal gains nowadays.

User avatar
_cerber1
258
Joined: 18 Jan 2019, 21:50
Location: From Russia with love

Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

Post

bananapeel23 wrote:
02 Nov 2024, 20:21
Is the idea that the water evaporates inside the tyres and that the energy required for a phase change cools the carcass and then the resulting steam keeps absorbing some of the heat?
You have a closed system, the energy does not go anywhere. The pressure in such a tire will be off the charts.