Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

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chrisc90
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Joined: 23 Feb 2022, 21:22

Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

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There is another storm brewing in the paddock. Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres to prevent them from overheating during the race.




Seems a bit strange given the tyre is sealed airtight. But someone mentioned it has happened in the past.


*Thread to keep the discussion from cluttering team threads*
Mess with the Bull - you get the horns.

Luscion
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Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

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FIA investigates the allegations
In Brazil, it was once again Red Bull's turn in the role of accuser. This time it was about filling the tires with water. The trick is supposed to help cool the tires better from the inside over long distances. The water is to be injected via the valves. Allegedly, even small amounts achieve the desired effect. Several teams are said to benefit from this practice during long runs, including McLaren.

The FIA is already investigating the allegations. There were no suspicious observations at the last two races in Austin and Mexico City. Pirelli would have to report the slightest irregularities to the FIA technical commissioners. According to the Italian tire manufacturer, however, there has not been a single suspicious incident this year.

Neither Pirelli nor the FIA want to comment officially on the case. However, there is talk behind closed doors that the story is just another storm in a teacup.
How does the water get into the tire?
When applying the trick, the first question must be how the water is supposed to get into the tires in the first place without Pirelli noticing. And how the water is supposed to disappear again after the race, apart from through evaporation. Tires and rims are coded. The FIA randomly assigns the tires to the rims reported by the teams. Mounting and demounting of the tires is carried out by Pirelli's service technicians.

Once the tires have been fitted, no team is allowed to tamper with them. The teams themselves do not have the tools to remove tires from the rim and put them back on. Tires cannot be reused after they have been removed once. The only access point through which water can be filled in is therefore the valve. But injecting fluids unnoticed would be extremely difficult with the number of watchdogs and Pirelli engineers in the garages.

Such a trick would also be highly risky. If the water does not evaporate before the tires are removed in the three to four hours after the race, suspicion is quickly aroused. Red Bull allegedly experimented with water in the tires many years ago. At that time, the trick was not yet expressly prohibited. But the FIA promptly closed this loophole. In the defending champion's camp, it is now assumed that former Red Bull employees have unpacked and refined this trick again in their new teams.

Alex_Z
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Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

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As this is coming from RBR we can confidently dismiss this as nonsense. Next.

FittingMechanics
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Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

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Seems like an impossible feat. Especially if FIA tried to find it happening in Austin and Mexico and couldn't.

CjC
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Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

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Wow. Red bull sure don’t enjoy loosing
Just a fan's point of view

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Vanja #66
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Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

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The last sentence in that report is crucial, clearly there's all sorts of rival personel poaching in McLaren. Could be nothing, like the RB bib story. It could also be very much something, McLaren obviously does not shy away from making illegal rear wings, so why not an illegal tyre procedure
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

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_cerber1
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Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

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I wonder if Red Bull has heard anything about unsprung mass?

FittingMechanics
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Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

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Vanja #66 wrote:
02 Nov 2024, 20:14
The last sentence in that report is crucial, clearly there's all sorts of rival personel poaching in McLaren. Could be nothing, like the RB bib story. It could also be very much something, McLaren obviously does not shy away from making illegal rear wings, so why not an illegal tyre procedure
RB bib story definitely was not "nothing".

FittingMechanics
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Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

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_cerber1 wrote:
02 Nov 2024, 20:15
I wonder if Red Bull has heard anything about unsprung mass?
I'm also not sure how small amount of water inside the tire would help cool it. After the water heats up (which should be very quickly) it just coat the interior of the tire with small amount of thermal mass. It may make spikes less strong but surely the amount of water inside the tire cannot be big enough to offset the mass of the tire.

Plus all these cars are overweight or close to it.

the EDGE
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Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

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Someone needs to explain the science in that… For a start, I would have thought the water would get hot and expand, increasing the pressure within the tire, and that would be the last thing a team would want? As they always complain, the tyre pressures are too high

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bananapeel23
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Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

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Alex_Z wrote:
02 Nov 2024, 20:11
As this is coming from RBR we can confidently dismiss this as nonsense. Next.
If you have nothing to add to the discussion. Please say nothing at all.

Personally I think it sounds off. You would think a bunch of unsprung mass in the tyres would be bad?

Is the idea that the water evaporates inside the tyres and that the energy required for a phase change cools the carcass and then the resulting steam keeps absorbing some of the heat?

TimW
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Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

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https://trid.trb.org/View/391119#:~:tex ... per%20cent.

Several percent would alter the thermal behaviour of the rubber. And when it is absorbed water would not be detected.

There could be something there. Remember that it is a game of marginal gains nowadays.

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_cerber1
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Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

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bananapeel23 wrote:
02 Nov 2024, 20:21
Is the idea that the water evaporates inside the tyres and that the energy required for a phase change cools the carcass and then the resulting steam keeps absorbing some of the heat?
You have a closed system, the energy does not go anywhere. The pressure in such a tire will be off the charts.

trinidefender
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Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

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Vanja #66 wrote:
02 Nov 2024, 20:14
The last sentence in that report is crucial, clearly there's all sorts of rival personel poaching in McLaren. Could be nothing, like the RB bib story. It could also be very much something, McLaren obviously does not shy away from making illegal rear wings, so why not an illegal tyre procedure
Every team tries to get away with any illegal thing they think they can get away with. Ferrari PU ring a bell? Bib story is still up in the air. Water in the tyre is to be determined.

Farnborough
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Re: Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

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And sooo .... nobody has ever seen the teams washing all the wheel, with tires still fitted, at rear of paddock when some of the TV crews do extended coverage ? They've even interviewed a few doing just that.

Take all the sets back to pirelli for demounting, with them wet ... then popping the tire off rims would likely not show anything untoward.

Niave to think its impossible.