2024 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 01 - 03

[chrisc90]

The colder it gets, the further back Ferrari will fall and McLaren/Redbull/Mercedes will rise.
If no Q happens, and the race starting grid is determined by FIA subjectively/following-the-rulebook to keep it to FP1 order rather than SQ order, that will find place in the list of stupidest rules-written/decisions made by FIA.

FP1 grid order has been debunked earlier on in this topic.

[FittingMechanics]

I seem to remember that they ran in heavy weather in Spa and Norris had a massive shunt.

There are times you can try and there are times when it is not possible. Rivers over the track is not possible for F1 car to navigate.

[FittingMechanics]

The colder it gets, the further back Ferrari will fall and McLaren/Redbull/Mercedes will rise.
If no Q happens, and the race starting grid is determined by FIA subjectively/following-the-rulebook to keep it to FP1 order rather than SQ order, that will find place in the list of stupidest rules-written/decisions made by FIA.

FP1 grid order has been debunked earlier on in this topic.

Not sure I agree it is debunked. Rules say that drivers who don't set any qualy times are classified by FP times but it is likely that there is some leeway in what they choose.

[Wouter]

6AM! Glad I am inside my warm house in front of a screen.

[Watto]

[Watto]

The colder it gets, the further back Ferrari will fall and McLaren/Redbull/Mercedes will rise.
If no Q happens, and the race starting grid is determined by FIA subjectively/following-the-rulebook to keep it to FP1 order rather than SQ order, that will find place in the list of stupidest rules-written/decisions made by FIA.

FP1 grid order has been debunked earlier on in this topic.

Not sure I agree it is debunked. Rules say that drivers who don't set any qualy times are classified by FP times but it is likely that there is some leeway in what they choose.

Sky went through the rulebook in their telecast and and their view was there as no provision on how to set the grid. For the Sprint Race it would have been FP1.

In a normal weekend it would be FP3.

Ted said different teams had different views on how it should be set .

I think they could set it off FP1 and the rules would allow it. Could set it off SQ and the rules would allow it or even the sprint results.

[venkyhere]

Unfortunately, for me, the "Sao Paolo" Grand Prix once again reveals one of the two great weaknesses of today's F1. 1. Pirelli's seemingly continuing inability to construct decent full wets. 2. the equally persistent over-cautiousness to drive in the rain (which is certainly also due to a large extent to modern society, as today in the event of an accident with injuries there would be a reaction that would immediately call into question the existence of an entire sport) with the lame excuse of today's cars. Where the first is incomprehensible (that Pirelli still can't build a rain tire after more than a decade), the second is simply ridiculous and a shame. It's ridiculous that you have the best drivers in the world who can't even drive in a bit of rain because half the world would be in an uproar in the event of an accident and you need cheap excuses (visibility in the rain was already zero 30 years ago, as Schumacher/Coulthard 1998 proves beyond doubt). I miss the good old days when the world was less crazy, when it was accepted that motorsport was dangerous and when Bernie said - you have contracts, you drive. There may well be other opinions here, but sorry, I think the fact that the Royal Road of motorsport, for whatever reason, no longer races in the rain is just embarrassing and a great pity at the same time.

I agree with your first point - that it's a shame Pirelli can't build a proper wet tyre.
Regarding your second point, while it's true that F1 is more 'chicken' to risks compared to the decades before, I don't think that's the reason why they are calling off driving in the wet. The real reason is - post-2021 ground effect cars' 'wake' is more upwards than outwards. This creates a fine mist-screen (lots of 'hang-time' for the sprayed up droplets) behind the car, such that the following driver can't even see, even if he doesn't follow the same racing line. Driver complaints are not really about 'grip' (they aren't any less brave than yesteryear drivers) but about 'vision'.

[chrisc90]

The colder it gets, the further back Ferrari will fall and McLaren/Redbull/Mercedes will rise.
If no Q happens, and the race starting grid is determined by FIA subjectively/following-the-rulebook to keep it to FP1 order rather than SQ order, that will find place in the list of stupidest rules-written/decisions made by FIA.

FP1 grid order has been debunked earlier on in this topic.

Not sure I agree it is debunked. Rules say that drivers who don't set any qualy times are classified by FP times but it is likely that there is some leeway in what they choose.

Me and Organic discussed it on the discord group - so a few might not have seen it.

I’ll fire the laptop up and quote the regs.

Effectively, FP1 is used on sprint weekends when drivers don’t classify.

Since all drivers classified in SQ1 - then that portion of the rules is no longer used.

There is nothing for formation of the grid with qualifying not run - that’s now detailed on 2025

[chrisc90]

42) THE GRID FOR THE SPRINT OR THE RACE
42.1 The grid for the race will be formed in accordance with the results of the qualifying session
described in Article 39.2, the classification process defined in Article 39.4 and the procedure
defined in Article 42.3. Any penalties received for the race will be added up and be applied using
the procedure defined in Article 42.3.

42.2 The grid for the sprint session, if scheduled, will be formed in accordance with the results of the
sprint shootout described in Article 39.3, the classification process defined in Article 39.4 and
the procedure defined in Article 42.3. Any penalties received for the sprint session will be added
up and be applied using the procedure defined in Article 42.3.
42.3 Starting from a nominally empty grid, drivers will be allocated their grid positions in the following
sequence of steps:
a) Classified drivers who have received 15 or less cumulative grid penalties will be allocated
a temporary grid position equal to their qualifying session or sprint shootout classification
plus the sum of their grid penalties. If two or more drivers share a temporary grid position,
their relative order will be determined in accordance with their qualifying session or sprint
shootout classification, with the slowest driver keeping their allocated temporary grid
position, and the other drivers getting temporary grid positions immediately ahead of
them.
b) Following the allocation of temporary grid positions to penalised drivers in accordance
with (a), unpenalised classified drivers will be allocated any unoccupied grid position, in
the sequence of their qualifying session or sprint shootout classification.
c) Following the allocation of grid positions to unpenalised classified drivers, penalised
drivers with a temporary grid position, as defined in (a), will be moved up to fill any
unoccupied grid position.
d) Classified drivers who have accrued more than 15 cumulative grid position penalties, or
who have been penalised to start at the back of the grid, will start behind any other
classified driver. Their relative position will be determined in accordance with their
qualifying session or sprint shootout classification.
e) Unclassified drivers who have been permitted to participate by the Stewards will be
allocated grid positions behind all the classified drivers. Their relative positions will be
determined in accordance with Article 39.4 (b).

Important to note 39.4

39.4 The Qualifying Session or Sprint Shootout Classification under Articles 39.2 and 39.3 will be
determined in the following way:
a) Classified drivers will be ordered according to the sequence below:
i) The top ten positions will be allocated to the drivers who took part in Q3 or SQ3, in
accordance with the best time set by each driver in Q3 or SQ3, the fastest in the first
position.
ii) The next five positions will be allocated to the drivers who got eliminated in Q2 or
SQ2, in accordance with the best time set by each driver in Q2 or SQ2, the fastest in
the 11th position.
iii) The next five positions will be allocated to the drivers who got eliminated in Q1 or
SQ1, in accordance with the best time set by each driver, the fastest in the 16th
position.
iv) If two (2) or more drivers set identical times during Q1, Q2 or Q3 or SQ1, SQ2 or SQ3
priority will be given to the one who set it first.
v) If more than one driver fails to set a time during Q2 or Q3 or SQ2 or SQ3 they will be
arranged in the following order:
- Any driver who attempted to set a qualifying time by starting a flying lap.
- Any driver who failed to start a flying lap.
- Any driver who failed to leave the pits during the period.
b) Drivers will be considered to be “unclassified” in the following circumstances:
i) If they got eliminated in Q1 or SQ1 and their best session lap exceeded 107% of the
fastest time set during that session, unless the track was declared wet by the Race
Director.
ii) If they failed to set a time in Q1 or SQ1, or if all their laps were deleted
iii) If they got disqualified by the Stewards from the Qualifying session or sprint shootout
The relative classification of such drivers will be determined as follows:
- Drivers who are unclassified because of conditions (i) or (ii) will be allocated
the top positions in accordance with the order they were classified in P3 (or,
in the case a Sprint Session is scheduled, P1)
- Drivers who are unclassified because of condition (iii) will be allocated the
lower positions in accordance with the order they were classified in P3 (or, in
the case a Sprint Session is scheduled, P1)
The participation of unclassified drivers in the remainder of the Competition will be
determined in each case by the Stewards, who may exceptionally consider parameters
such as:
- A suitable lap time being set in another practice session
- The general performance of the driver in previous Competitions of the
Championship
- The gravity of the offence which caused the driver’s disqualification

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -09-26.pdf

The important wording that you need to look for, is when a driver becomes 'Classified'. As I said, given all drivers completed sprint qualifying, they are all classified, and the only logical reason would be to use the most competitive session to determine the grid; before any grid penalties.

[search]

Looking forward to the 7am grumpy-Max interview

[ENGINE TUNER]

Hamilton says the truth loud and live for the world to hear, the wet tires that pirelli provide are garbage, they need better wet tires to drive in the wet. The spray is nothing but an excuse to cover for pirelli. I remember when it was proven that the 2010 Bridgestone inters displaced more water than the 2016 pirelli full wets. Pirelli are the biggest problem holding back F1 from great racing in the wet or dry.

[Vettel165]

@NobleF1

The safety car is out now having some exploratory laps of Interlagos, with the rain level increasing. It doesn't look great....

[chrisc90]

@NobleF1

The safety car is out now having some exploratory laps of Interlagos, with the rain level increasing. It doesn't look great....

Hope we wont have to sit for 90% of the day waiting round for them to decide whether a session will be run or not.

[Wouter]

@NobleF1

The safety car is out now having some exploratory laps of Interlagos, with the rain level increasing. It doesn't look great....

.
For a look at the track:

[Vanja #66]

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -09-26.pdf

The important wording that you need to look for, is when a driver becomes 'Classified'. As I said, given all drivers completed sprint qualifying, they are all classified, and the only logical reason would be to use the most competitive session to determine the grid; before any grid penalties.

Great analysis folks, well done, everyone missed the full definition of classified and unclassified driver