Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

[gandharva]

The first thing I'd do here is to replace water with even better medium. I wonder how harsh penalties should be if this gets caught... but FIA is a toothless tiger these days.

[organic]

The first thing I'd do here is to replace water with even better medium. I wonder how harsh penalties should be if this gets caught... but FIA is a toothless tiger these days.

Water is a very good medium. Very high latent heat of evaporation, under pressures used in pirellis tyres the bp of water is only just above the operating window of pirelli tyres, and its presence if discovered can be more easily hand waved away than any other more exotic/specific substance

[gandharva]

I think that a good chemist could easily find potential for improvement here. The trick itself seems to be so easy to implement that you can easily throw a few resources on it to pick up the one or other low hanging fruit.

[Vanja #66]

Formu1a Uno reports that red bull are not the only team that suspect McLaren did this

The latest case concerns McLaren's use of Pirelli compounds, a suspicion fueled and pushed by Red Bull but which has also found allies in other teams.

some teams strongly suspect that in Woking they had put water inside the tire via the inflation valve

Also the amounts in question are less than 10ml, not large quantities that would affect the unsprung mass considerably as speculated here

According to what Formu1a.uno learned in the last few hours, we are talking about milliliters , therefore very small quantities of water, considering that a single ml would allow a decrease of a few degrees in the temperature at the heart of the tire.

Recommend reading the full article

https://formu1a.uno/it/acqua-nelle-gomm ... -ha-prove/

Formu1a Uno going into this depth on the subject suggests to me that Ferrari believe that this idea holds some water

As I previously noted here, it fits very well as a "missing" puzzle on how McLaren operates their tyres in the race. Mediums in the first stint cooled down in this method would need slower laps initially and picking up the pace and even over-pushing them to heat up the carcass and make the water evaporate. At the same time, you extend the stint and lose minimal time compared to cars that are already on new Hards. Going 5-10 laps longer allows you to push like mad on Hards and you suspension geometry has no problem heating them up, even if they are harder to heat up than Mediums - because your Mediums are artificially cooled down. In the final 30-40% of the race you can be much faster than anyone else ahead, which is exactly what consistently happens with McLaren.

[Sergej]

I tend not to believe these "conspiracy theories" in absence of something substantial, anyway if this is real it will be easily caught up looking carefully at how McLaren will behave towards the end of the stints in these last races, so far they have been class of the field in this regard.

[Farnborough]

F1 has always followed the "unwritten" rule of whisper, in that if a team finds something tangible another is doing, then would adopt it if legal, or push it out into the open to either stop it or get approval.

Everyone, and particularly with how current information is spread, has their view on this, often calling names or throwing accusations (this from commentary on here and in press) when its never really been any different.

Its like a pressure relief valve and always will be. It is, whether we like it or not, part of the regulation by default.

There'll always be denial, always be downplayed the gain/ effect/contribution, that's just part of human response.

Interesting from us here to find out what's going on though.

[organic]

Perhaps an official complaint will be lodged in this 3 week break

[Sergej]

Perhaps an official complaint will be lodged in this 3 week break

Doubt it, this loophole, if it was real, will be closed by Pirelli who'll enhance supervision, and for past events you can't prove anything anymore, so no ground for official protest; I mean they did not even protest McLaren's Baku win with a full screen video showing a 2nd DRS lol

[PlatinumZealot]

Heat transfer increases dramatically with humidity:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ka ... rature.png
(From:https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Eff ... _261716067)

So there is a huge benefit of you need heat transfer between tire and rim.
As long as you make sure that all water evaporates, I don't think there is any big impact on the thermal expansion coefficient.

So to me there seems to be a clear possible gain here, if you can sneak in a few cc. of water in while adjusting the tire pressure.

My biggest reservation is that this would be an outright violation of the rules, not a grey area. Just like adjusting the bib height in parc ferme would be. I'd expect a team to be taken out of the constructors standings as a penalty for that, if caught. And I cannot imagine a team taking that risk.

How would it violate the rules though?

[PlatinumZealot]

A special needle can be used to inject water or even a special material on the wheel rim. Or simply using your own air supply.

Does pirelli provide air between runs for the teams and for pressure changes?

[FW17]

Isola noted that adding moisture would not be difficult.

“To do that is very easy,” he said. “You put water inside the tyre, and it’s finished. You have a valve, you put water inside. How the system works is a different story.

“It’s basically a thermal effect, heat transfer between the tyres and the rim that should give more consistency or less degradation to the tyre, even if you have worse control of the pressure.

“Because obviously, if you have vapour or steam inside the tyre, you lose the control of the pressure. You have a pressure that is higher.”

https://formu1a.uno/...-at-interlagos/

from the previously mentioned link

[Vanja #66]

Doubt it, this loophole, if it was real, will be closed by Pirelli who'll enhance supervision, and for past events you can't prove anything anymore, so no ground for official protest; I mean they did not even protest McLaren's Baku win with a full screen video showing a 2nd DRS lol

10.8.4 Treatment of tyres

a. Tyres may only be inflated with air or nitrogen.

b. Any process the intent of which is to reduce the amount of moisture in the tyre and/or
in its inflation gas is forbidden.

c. A complete wheel must contain a single fixed internal gas volume. No valves, bleeds or
permeable membranes are permitted other than to inflate or deflate the tyre whilst the
car is stationary.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -04-25.pdf

However anyone spins it, it's quite clear what rules define as legal and illegal. Think I saw there was also a TD introduced to close a loophole after RB experimented with water inside tyres years ago, I imagine rules have been rewritten since.

[FW17]

Formu1a Uno reports that red bull are not the only team that suspect McLaren did this

The latest case concerns McLaren's use of Pirelli compounds, a suspicion fueled and pushed by Red Bull but which has also found allies in other teams.

some teams strongly suspect that in Woking they had put water inside the tire via the inflation valve

Also the amounts in question are less than 10ml, not large quantities that would affect the unsprung mass considerably as speculated here

According to what Formu1a.uno learned in the last few hours, we are talking about milliliters , therefore very small quantities of water, considering that a single ml would allow a decrease of a few degrees in the temperature at the heart of the tire.

Recommend reading the full article

https://formu1a.uno/it/acqua-nelle-gomm ... -ha-prove/

Formu1a Uno going into this depth on the subject suggests to me that Ferrari believe that this idea holds some water

isn't 10ml too little to cover the entire tread of the tyre? A front tyre would have tread area of 6900 cm^2 with 1 mm water film would require 690 ml of water

[dialtone]

Perhaps an official complaint will be lodged in this 3 week break

Doubt it, this loophole, if it was real, will be closed by Pirelli who'll enhance supervision, and for past events you can't prove anything anymore, so no ground for official protest; I mean they did not even protest McLaren's Baku win with a full screen video showing a 2nd DRS lol

enhance supervision lmao. Mercedes just changed tire pressure without following procedure and was fined less than swearing in front of grown people, the same weekend where this water tire story came out FIA just thought to practically ignore the issue of tire pressure procedures.

[Farnborough]

Heat transfer increases dramatically with humidity:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ka ... rature.png
(From:https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Eff ... _261716067)

So there is a huge benefit of you need heat transfer between tire and rim.
As long as you make sure that all water evaporates, I don't think there is any big impact on the thermal expansion coefficient.

So to me there seems to be a clear possible gain here, if you can sneak in a few cc. of water in while adjusting the tire pressure.

My biggest reservation is that this would be an outright violation of the rules, not a grey area. Just like adjusting the bib height in parc ferme would be. I'd expect a team to be taken out of the constructors standings as a penalty for that, if caught. And I cannot imagine a team taking that risk.

How would it violate the rules though?

If there's insufficient rules/words/description of exactly what can happen .... then, loophole that may then be clarified if it becomes apparent or speculated about for its use.

If very clearly it's "contained" within the rules by prohibition, and a team hides this action intending to avoid being caught against those clear instructions, then that's another whole question.

If hidden to not alert other teams about working a loophole, that's understandable.

If hidden because they know it's certainly "illegal" then a management group in that team knows this and still directed it to happen