2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

[mwillems]

I don't think Oscar ever really showed he is faster than Norris. In Hungary he got the jump at the start. In Baku he qualified well ahead because Norris had bad luck in qualifying. Maybe Monza, I don't really remember details of that race.

About better racecraft, he does seem to be more aggressive and decisive (some wheel banging proves that) but he isn't as good at managing tires.

Not sure I agree any of them have significantly different ceiling.

Baku is a win that Oscar ripped from Charles' hands. A really impressive win.

Agree that Lando had bad luck, but that doesn't detract in my mind from what Oscar did.

[ScuderiaLeo]

Even if they don't put their eggs in one basket, to be a number 1 driver you have to have the talent and mindset to claim it.

Lando hasn't been able to convert his one lap pace into the points he needs to go for the WDC or be number 1 at his own team.

Even with his poor performances Piastri has pulled in about the same points as Lando over the past 11 or 12 GPs.

I wouldn't put my eggs in any basket yet, I think Oscar has some way to go in consistency, racecraft and tyre management. I'm happy for them to fight it out. If Lando can't get on top of Oscar next year then the writing is on the wall. With 4 years more experience in F1 and experience with the team and the car, he shouldn't have ever needed the team to prioritise him.

If you don't think Norris is WDC worthy, I don't see how Piastri can be either. His highs are much lower. Even adjusting for moments like the Brazil sprint where he gave up a point, he's far behind Norris this year. He just doesn't have the pace to be a champion right now. Of course, it's possible to develop this. But when you look at drivers like Verstappen, Leclerc, and even Russell, they were clearly quick right from their first few years. It's rare to be slow in your rookie years then suddenly develop race winning pace like Piastri would have to do.

Piastri is better than Norris in many areas. Particularly in wheel to wheel and at starts. But these skills aren't helpful if you can't back them up with pace. Baku was impressive but I feel like that's really the only outstanding moment for him this year. Zandvoort, Monza, Singapore, and most of this triple header all ranged from uninspiring to downright bad.

This leaves the issue of neither driver potentially being good enough. But even if that's true, what then? There aren't many other options. I don't see Verstappen moving to McLaren. Leclerc will stay with Ferrari forever. The only reasonable option is Russell and that's more of a sidegrade than a direct upgrade.

Norris may be disappointing this year but there are few drivers better than him available for the foreseeable future and I don't see how so many people see Piastri as the future when he hasn't proven himself yet.

[bauc]

Next season will be tough, but I believe we will be in the best place possible, as I don't care who they put instead of Perez we will still have better duo than RBR and Ferrari with Hamilton, even though he is still great his abilities to deliver weekend after weekend are diminishing.

If we have a race winning car since race 1 of next year, both PIA and NOR will be able to be the best version of themselves, this season afterall is a learning curve for all of the team, for all of us here as well, it been more than a decade since we were truly competitive.... and Zak always said the target is 2025 so let go and finish this season strong, get the constructors championship in our pocket and win the drivers next year.

[mwillems]

Even if they don't put their eggs in one basket, to be a number 1 driver you have to have the talent and mindset to claim it.

Lando hasn't been able to convert his one lap pace into the points he needs to go for the WDC or be number 1 at his own team.

Even with his poor performances Piastri has pulled in about the same points as Lando over the past 11 or 12 GPs.

I wouldn't put my eggs in any basket yet, I think Oscar has some way to go in consistency, racecraft and tyre management. I'm happy for them to fight it out. If Lando can't get on top of Oscar next year then the writing is on the wall. With 4 years more experience in F1 and experience with the team and the car, he shouldn't have ever needed the team to prioritise him.

If you don't think Norris is WDC worthy, I don't see how Piastri can be either. His highs are much lower. Even adjusting for moments like the Brazil sprint where he gave up a point, he's far behind Norris this year. He just doesn't have the pace to be a champion right now. Of course, it's possible to develop this. But when you look at drivers like Verstappen, Leclerc, and even Russell, they were clearly quick right from their first few years. It's rare to be slow in your rookie years then suddenly develop race winning pace like Piastri would have to do.

Piastri is better than Norris in many areas. Particularly in wheel to wheel and at starts. But these skills aren't helpful if you can't back them up with pace. Baku was impressive but I feel like that's really the only outstanding moment for him this year. Zandvoort, Monza, Singapore, and most of this triple header all ranged from uninspiring to downright bad.

This leaves the issue of neither driver potentially being good enough. But even if that's true, what then? There aren't many other options. I don't see Verstappen moving to McLaren. Leclerc will stay with Ferrari forever. The only reasonable option is Russell and that's more of a sidegrade than a direct upgrade.

Norris may be disappointing this year but there are few drivers better than him available for the foreseeable future and I don't see how so many people see Piastri as the future when he hasn't proven himself yet.

"If you don't think Norris is WDC worthy, I don't see how Piastri can be either"

As I explained, neither is. Both need to make a claim for number 1 status stick.

My only bias against Lando is that he is in his 6th season vs Oscars 2nd and I expect him to dominate Oscar, he hasn't been able to do that, to the point that fans were actively crowing for the team to artificially stop Oscar getting the better of Lando.

Both need to up their game and neither is really top level. And Lando is the more complete driver. But Oscar for me is there of thereabouts with his progression and Lando seems to have not pushed on as he should. All year long a load more unforced errors just like the year before. I don't see that he's improved much (Though he has a little) it just looks like the car to me.

[FittingMechanics]

I don't think Oscar ever really showed he is faster than Norris. In Hungary he got the jump at the start. In Baku he qualified well ahead because Norris had bad luck in qualifying. Maybe Monza, I don't really remember details of that race.

About better racecraft, he does seem to be more aggressive and decisive (some wheel banging proves that) but he isn't as good at managing tires.

Not sure I agree any of them have significantly different ceiling.

Baku is a win that Oscar ripped from Charles' hands. A really impressive win.

Agree that Lando had bad luck, but that doesn't detract in my mind from what Oscar did.

Yes but Norris ended up P4 so it is quite possible NOR would have won Baku if he started near the front. In any case, we can't really compare them in that race because of completely different circumstances.

My point is that Piastri did not have any stellar performances this year where he truly dominated against Norris. His two wins were because he overtook a teammate on start and the second win was when Norris started from P15 or whatever it was.

Norris had many races where he was much faster than Piastri. Austria, Hungary, Zandvoort, Singapore.

If you take last 11 races:
AUT - NOR DNF, PIA P2
GBR - NOR P3, PIA P4
HUN - NOR P2, PIA P1
BEL - NOR P5, PIA P2
NED - NOR P1, PIA P4
ITA - NOR P3, PIA P2
AZE - NOR P4, PIA P1
SIN - NOR P1, PIA P3
USA - NOR P4, PIA P5
MXC - NOR P2, PIA P8
SAP - NOR P6, PIA P8

Looking at it, lot of missed opportunity for both. Norris falling out in Q1 in Baku is a big one, loss of points due to mistakes in strategy in Silverstone another (Verstappen gains 3 points with P2, Norris loses out 10 - 13 points swing).

[FittingMechanics]

Both need to up their game and neither is really top level. And Lando is the more complete driver. But Oscar for me is there of thereabouts with his progression and Lando seems to have not pushed on as he should. All year long a load more unforced errors just like the year before. I don't see that he's improved much (Though he has a little) it just looks like the car to me.

What were really Landos mistakes this year? Starts and restarts obviously but other than that?

Crash in Austria was due to Max defending super aggressively.
Situation in Austin the same.

Lando completely dominated Piastri in qualifying (18-3 so far).

In races Lando was usually doing quite well, at least comparable to Piastri. There were no unforced errors from his side (I remember Singapore but he didn't crash and it had no bearing on the outcome). To me it just looks like the team made some strategy mistakes, in some cases when the team was fast other teams stepped up as well (Mercedes and Ferrari) so McLaren could never easily capitalize against Red Bull and Verstappen.

[ScuderiaLeo]

"If you don't think Norris is WDC worthy, I don't see how Piastri can be either"

As I explained, neither is. Both need to make a claim for number 1 status stick.

My only bias against Lando is that he is in his 6th season vs Oscars 2nd and I expect him to dominate Oscar, he hasn't been able to do that, to the point that fans were actively crowing for the team to artificially stop Oscar getting the better of Lando.

Both need to up their game and neither is really top level. And Lando is the more complete driver. But Oscar for me is there of thereabouts with his progression and Lando seems to have not pushed on as he should. All year long a load more unforced errors just like the year before. I don't see that he's improved much (Though he has a little) it just looks like the car to me.

I'm curious then, what do you think the route for McLaren is? If by the end of next year neither Norris nor Piastri have improved... what is the move? Try to get Russell? Recruit two rookies and rebuild from the ground up? I just don't really see there being any available options that are better than Norris (or Piastri for that matter).

As for his improvement or lack of, I don't follow McLaren closely but from the outside it seems like Norris has improved his qualifying this season. I recall last year Piastri was called a qualifying specialist and people were expecting him to be closer this year than he actually is. I think this shows Norris can improve even this "late" in his career.

[mwillems]

"If you don't think Norris is WDC worthy, I don't see how Piastri can be either"

As I explained, neither is. Both need to make a claim for number 1 status stick.

My only bias against Lando is that he is in his 6th season vs Oscars 2nd and I expect him to dominate Oscar, he hasn't been able to do that, to the point that fans were actively crowing for the team to artificially stop Oscar getting the better of Lando.

Both need to up their game and neither is really top level. And Lando is the more complete driver. But Oscar for me is there of thereabouts with his progression and Lando seems to have not pushed on as he should. All year long a load more unforced errors just like the year before. I don't see that he's improved much (Though he has a little) it just looks like the car to me.

I'm curious then, what do you think the route for McLaren is? If by the end of next year neither Norris nor Piastri have improved... what is the move? Try to get Russell? Recruit two rookies and rebuild from the ground up? I just don't really see there being any available options that are better than Norris (or Piastri for that matter).

As for his improvement or lack of, I don't follow McLaren closely but from the outside it seems like Norris has improved his qualifying this season. I recall last year Piastri was called a qualifying specialist and people were expecting him to be closer this year than he actually is. I think this shows Norris can improve even this "late" in his career.

The option I suggested is they wait and let the drivers battle it out. Drivers move whether in contract or not depending on what happens with their teams dynamic and performance.

[mwillems]

I don't think Oscar ever really showed he is faster than Norris. In Hungary he got the jump at the start. In Baku he qualified well ahead because Norris had bad luck in qualifying. Maybe Monza, I don't really remember details of that race.

About better racecraft, he does seem to be more aggressive and decisive (some wheel banging proves that) but he isn't as good at managing tires.

Not sure I agree any of them have significantly different ceiling.

Baku is a win that Oscar ripped from Charles' hands. A really impressive win.

Agree that Lando had bad luck, but that doesn't detract in my mind from what Oscar did.

Yes but Norris ended up P4 so it is quite possible NOR would have won Baku if he started near the front. In any case, we can't really compare them in that race because of completely different circumstances.

My point is that Piastri did not have any stellar performances this year where he truly dominated against Norris. His two wins were because he overtook a teammate on start and the second win was when Norris started from P15 or whatever it was.

Norris had many races where he was much faster than Piastri. Austria, Hungary, Zandvoort, Singapore.

If you take last 11 races:
AUT - NOR DNF, PIA P2
GBR - NOR P3, PIA P4
HUN - NOR P2, PIA P1
BEL - NOR P5, PIA P2
NED - NOR P1, PIA P4
ITA - NOR P3, PIA P2
AZE - NOR P4, PIA P1
SIN - NOR P1, PIA P3
USA - NOR P4, PIA P5
MXC - NOR P2, PIA P8
SAP - NOR P6, PIA P8

Looking at it, lot of missed opportunity for both. Norris falling out in Q1 in Baku is a big one, loss of points due to mistakes in strategy in Silverstone another (Verstappen gains 3 points with P2, Norris loses out 10 - 13 points swing).

For his level and what is expected, Oscar has had some Stellar performances in my view. Baku was excellent. For sure, better tyre management is needed to get him to Lando's raw pace, but what he did in race craft to take the win and keep it is as good as anything Lando is able to do right now. The mistake is that both are judged as if they should be at the same level. I fully expect Lando to be way ahead of Oscar, the fact that he is not is telling of both their progress. Monaco was a great performance. With Oscars damaged car with less downforce, Lando still could not catch his time. He didn't win, but it was a brilliant race for him.

In terms of Qualy, you can look at it many ways. Overall wins is very binary, the actual gaps are small in both the average time between them and the average positions. If you take the binary view then he is dominant. But in the end, the points are won on Sunday and for most of the season, Oscar has been consistently as good as Lando at converting to points. That is something I put down to the mental aspect of the racing. He might not yet be as fast, but he is, for me at least, a much more robust driver which shows in his driving.

Ultimately, I would like both to press on and do very well. But I'm open and honest that I'm losing faith in Lando's ability to go to that next level. Oscar is yet to prove it, or to have been given enough chances. Hence, next year, if Lando doesn't do the business, I think he will struggle to be seen even in the team as the teams future, no matter what they publicly say.

[mwillems]

I'll make that my last post on the matter lest it becomes a battleground again, and will pointedly ignore some of the more biased and gaslighting responses that may or may not occur from a certain section of the fanbase that have a clear lean in one direction or another even before opinions are made literal.

[FittingMechanics]

Baku win was great but we can't be sure what would be the pace of Norris if he started that high. Great win and great defense by Piastri but that is one of rare races where Norris was very out of position. Piastri Monaco qualy was also very good, most important qualy of the year and he nails it.

It's quite possible both guys are very good and that we wouldn't get much from almost any other driver in the field (at least not called Max). That is the nature when you get two very good drivers, neither looks exceptional.

I'd wager that Norris with good starts and restarts would still be challenging for the title or Piastri with better qualifying and tire management. Margins are small.

I hope McLaren keeps an option on Bortoleto. He is confirmed in Sauber for next year and having him as a potential driver if Piastri or Norris move away would be very good things to have.

[Ben1980]

I think they are noth good drivers, and both more than capable of winning a WDC. While I think Lando is faster, and obviously performing better on Qualifying, Oscar isn't far off. But, I don't think Oscar's relative inexperience should be in his favour. When he has the car to perform he should be judged against his co driver. And therefore next year us a big one for him.

I do think if he loses 3 in a row, it will lead to questions.

In teems of current drivers though, Max is the best, followed by Leclerc. I would put Lando 3rd Oscar alongside George Russell and Sainz.

Lewis is an unknown, I feel he has dialled it in this season, and may get a rude awakening at Ferrari. Alonso should retire, I like him though. Unsure on any standouts with the rest. Though would like to see little Yuki at Red Bull.

[venkyhere]

What were really Landos mistakes this year? Starts and restarts obviously but other than that?

1. Starts and restarts
(actually not the biggest issue, all this "pole but not leading after lap1" narrative is overblown, IMHO. Almost every race post Miami the Mclaren has had enough pace and enough straight line speed to overtake the other three big teams). But I think the bigger issue (that is getting oversimplified as 'starts') is that despite the super-talent that he is, Lando needs to accept that his core skills still need some polishing - things like over-hammering of fresh tyres on outlap, 2nd phase of acceleration on race starts (it can't all be 'software', it has to depend on throttle modulation), ultra crash-fear on lap1 etc.

2. Racecraft
On a pure 'driving a car at the limit' aspect, he is up there with the best, hence the brilliant qualifying record post Miami once he had a 'winning car'. The issue comes in race situations, where 'sensing the behavior of the car' is not the only thing that has to be processed by the mind. Sussing out what the guy ahead is doing, what the guy behind is doing etc overloads the mind, and on top of it, needs to plan attack/defence 'before the corner arrives', without letting the other guy know too much beforehand. He copes well, but not very consistently.

3. Indecisiveness
Partially the pitwall/team to blame for this, but on many occasions I've heard Lando's indecisiveness on the team radio. He almost never puts his foot down and 'demands' something - right or wrong, that's not the main thing. He needs to have confidence to tell the team - 'look you have the data, I have the 'feel'. And on this occasion, I go by 'feel', not data'. Don't remember such a radio exchange (from whatever I've seen). Whether this is due to his inability at 'race reading' or whether it's due to his inability to 'take command' within the team, I am unable to say.

[Darth-Piekus]

Has anyone ever thought that perhaps Norris might be a late bloomer, still progressing and we might see him at the level of Max in the following years.

[bauc]

Has anyone ever thought that perhaps Norris might be a late bloomer, still progressing and we might see him at the level of Max in the following years.

Yes why not, lets remind ourselfs this is his first year that he has competitive car