2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

[mwillems]

Norris is more experienced but barely older than Piastri. 16 months or sonething. Only a school year in it. It's easy to forget his age, turns 25 this month. Still over 2 years younger than Max or Charles.

Max has 86 more GP starts. That's not far off Landos GP career of 125.

A school year in it, plus:

4 Years in the team
Input into the cars development
4 years training whilst in the best racing category there is
2 High level drivers to compare race data and learn from
Relationships build and understanding of how the team work, present data, extract the best from car and driver
Ability to develop with lower expectations than what is on Oscar right now due to the cars position and what was relatively at stake for the team
Not having a year out of competitive racing in 2022 before the 2023 season


Age I don't think, has anything to do with it. The team have had 4 years to work age out as any kind of factor for a lack of success Max was 23 with his first championship. Lando has a massive headstart on Oscar and it doesn't really reflect in the performances. It's Oscar first competitive year in the car too, and he's not far behind Lando and over the second half of the season, is performing to a very similar level. And that is the most telling thing. His teammate is closing him down. Even with some bad races, he's closing down the performance gap.

What will be said if and when he starts to open up his own?

It's 14-7 to Lando on Race head to head. But once you look to see where Oscar found his feet this year, from Monaco onwards, the race head to head is 8-6 to Lando.

And that's why I'll repeat again. Next year is a big season for Lando. Forget the WDC, it he can't shake Oscar, or Oscar starts getting on top of him, he's going to struggle to fight to be seen as the future of the team.

[basti313]

Has anyone ever thought that perhaps Norris might be a late bloomer, still progressing and we might see him at the level of Max in the following years.

Yes why not, lets remind ourselfs this is his first year that he has competitive car

Oh my...this is such a fan thread

Well he has two years. This year is gone. Next year will be the last before the engine manufacturers take over again.

[ScuderiaLeo]

Norris is more experienced but barely older than Piastri. 16 months or sonething. Only a school year in it. It's easy to forget his age, turns 25 this month. Still over 2 years younger than Max or Charles.

Max has 86 more GP starts. That's not far off Landos GP career of 125.

It's not like he's a teenager... 2 years isn't that much.

I agree Norris deserves some time to learn what it's like to be at the front, but I'm not sure the 2 years age difference from Verstappen and Leclerc is very meaningful. Piastri entered F1 at an older age than most, so he's the outlier. Not Norris.

[Ben1980]

Norris is more experienced but barely older than Piastri. 16 months or sonething. Only a school year in it. It's easy to forget his age, turns 25 this month. Still over 2 years younger than Max or Charles.

Max has 86 more GP starts. That's not far off Landos GP career of 125.

A school year in it, plus:

4 Years in the team
Input into the cars development
4 years training whilst in the best racing category there is
2 High level drivers to compare race data and learn from
Relationships build and understanding of how the team work, present data, extract the best from car and driver
Ability to develop with lower expectations than what is on Oscar right now due to the cars position and what was relatively at stake for the team
Not having a year out of competitive racing in 2022 before the 2023 season


Age I don't think, has anything to do with it. The team have had 4 years to work age out as any kind of factor for a lack of success Max was 23 with his first championship. Lando has a massive headstart on Oscar and it doesn't really reflect in the performances. It's Oscar first competitive year in the car too, and he's not far behind Lando and over the second half of the season, is performing to a very similar level. And that is the most telling thing. His teammate is closing him down. Even with some bad races, he's closing down the performance gap.

What will be said if and when he starts to open up his own?

I would expect him to close the performance. If he wasn't closing the performance I would be questioning the reason for driving in the team. I would give a year to anyone to get to grips, but after thar, in the same machines, at the sharp end they should be close.

Colapinto has jumped straight in the Williams and is not far off Albon. Lawson is pushing Yuki.

The days of long drawn out learning curves are ending.

Oscar has performed well, but he has also performed as he should. And next year he needs to improve his qualifying against his team mate.

Next year is big for both of them. If Lando wins again pressure is on Oscar, idlf Oscar wins pressure on Lando.

[Ben1980]

Norris is more experienced but barely older than Piastri. 16 months or sonething. Only a school year in it. It's easy to forget his age, turns 25 this month. Still over 2 years younger than Max or Charles.

Max has 86 more GP starts. That's not far off Landos GP career of 125.

It's not like he's a teenager... 2 years isn't that much.

I agree Norris deserves some time to learn what it's like to be at the front, but I'm not sure the 2 years age difference from Verstappen and Leclerc is very meaningful. Piastri entered F1 at an older age than most, so he's the outlier. Not Norris.

My point was I just think people think Norris is older than he is. But Max has so much more experience and Chareles has 1 season more.

[mwillems]

Norris is more experienced but barely older than Piastri. 16 months or sonething. Only a school year in it. It's easy to forget his age, turns 25 this month. Still over 2 years younger than Max or Charles.

Max has 86 more GP starts. That's not far off Landos GP career of 125.

A school year in it, plus:

4 Years in the team
Input into the cars development
4 years training whilst in the best racing category there is
2 High level drivers to compare race data and learn from
Relationships build and understanding of how the team work, present data, extract the best from car and driver
Ability to develop with lower expectations than what is on Oscar right now due to the cars position and what was relatively at stake for the team
Not having a year out of competitive racing in 2022 before the 2023 season


Age I don't think, has anything to do with it. The team have had 4 years to work age out as any kind of factor for a lack of success Max was 23 with his first championship. Lando has a massive headstart on Oscar and it doesn't really reflect in the performances. It's Oscar first competitive year in the car too, and he's not far behind Lando and over the second half of the season, is performing to a very similar level. And that is the most telling thing. His teammate is closing him down. Even with some bad races, he's closing down the performance gap.

What will be said if and when he starts to open up his own?

I would expect him to close the performance. If he wasn't closing the performance I would be questioning the reason for driving in the team. I would give a year to anyone to get to grips, but after thar, in the same machines, at the sharp end they should be close.

Colapinto has jumped straight in the Williams and is not far off Albon. Lawson is pushing Yuki.

The days of long drawn out learning curves are ending.

Oscar has performed well, but he has also performed as he should. And next year he needs to improve his qualifying against his team mate.

Next year is big for both of them. If Lando wins again pressure is on Oscar, idlf Oscar wins pressure on Lando.

And therein lies the problem. Oscar and Lando do not have the same expectation in the level of performance. To Oscars credit, he's made people look at it like they should, and it's natural for a guy to come into the team and be this good at this end of the grid. This is why one is paid £4m and the other is paid £20m. The comparative cost per point difference is insane, though Oscar is surely going to get a new contract that reflects his ability.

Colapinto hasn't had time to demonstrate anything, nor has Lawson. And neither of their paired drivers sit at the same level as Lando and nor are they competing with the likes of Max, Charles, Carlos, Lewis or George.


"The days of long drawn out learning curves are ending. "

Tyre management is a long drawn out learning curve, as is racing experience, since Sims don't provide those for you.

[Ben1980]

A school year in it, plus:

4 Years in the team
Input into the cars development
4 years training whilst in the best racing category there is
2 High level drivers to compare race data and learn from
Relationships build and understanding of how the team work, present data, extract the best from car and driver
Ability to develop with lower expectations than what is on Oscar right now due to the cars position and what was relatively at stake for the team
Not having a year out of competitive racing in 2022 before the 2023 season


Age I don't think, has anything to do with it. The team have had 4 years to work age out as any kind of factor for a lack of success Max was 23 with his first championship. Lando has a massive headstart on Oscar and it doesn't really reflect in the performances. It's Oscar first competitive year in the car too, and he's not far behind Lando and over the second half of the season, is performing to a very similar level. And that is the most telling thing. His teammate is closing him down. Even with some bad races, he's closing down the performance gap.

What will be said if and when he starts to open up his own?

I would expect him to close the performance. If he wasn't closing the performance I would be questioning the reason for driving in the team. I would give a year to anyone to get to grips, but after thar, in the same machines, at the sharp end they should be close.

Colapinto has jumped straight in the Williams and is not far off Albon. Lawson is pushing Yuki.

The days of long drawn out learning curves are ending.

Oscar has performed well, but he has also performed as he should. And next year he needs to improve his qualifying against his team mate.

Next year is big for both of them. If Lando wins again pressure is on Oscar, idlf Oscar wins pressure on Lando.

And therein lies the problem. Oscar and Lando do not have the same expectation in the level of performance. To Oscars credit, he's made people look at it like they should, and it's natural for a guy to come into the team and be this good at this end of the grid. This is why one is paid £4m and the other is paid £20m. The comparative cost per point difference is insane, though Oscar is surely going to get a new contract that reflects his ability.

Colapinto hasn't had time to demonstrate anything, nor has Lawson. And neither of their paired drivers sit at the same level as Lando and nor are they competing with the likes of Max, Charles, Carlos, Lewis or George.


"The days of long drawn out learning curves are ending. "

Tyre management is a long drawn out learning curve, as is racing experience, since Sims don't provide those for you.

But, I don't see why they shouldn't have the same expectations. Your teammate is who you can really be based against. Oscar got the job, on the basis he would perform, and he has had to perform.

If Oscar was pulling a Perez, the case against him would be damning, and he would be going into last chance saloon already.

He Doesn't get a pass for being new, and he doesn't need one. Charles Leclerc 2nd season was pole position in his second race, 7 poles and 2 wins. You have to step up.

( I think Leclerc is better than both Mclaren drivers though)

[Darth-Piekus]

People forget that while Max got his first championship at 23 it was gifted due to the Abu Dhabi event and then the next two years he had a car which was 1 second faster than the rest. Lando Norris had a car that was always 1 or more seconds behind. Even this year his car became best after Hungary and that was by 1 to 2 tenths and even then those distances changed depending on circuit. Then we have a driver and team who havent fought for a win on merit before for many years so they were inexperienced on that department. You can also count the fact that Mclaren doesnt have a number 1 and a number 2 and all these parameters added on the result. Lets see what Lando can do if Mclaren gets a car that will let him lead from the start and not 7 races later. Then we can see if Lando can be more aggressive with Max or take more risks.

[mwillems]

I would expect him to close the performance. If he wasn't closing the performance I would be questioning the reason for driving in the team. I would give a year to anyone to get to grips, but after thar, in the same machines, at the sharp end they should be close.

Colapinto has jumped straight in the Williams and is not far off Albon. Lawson is pushing Yuki.

The days of long drawn out learning curves are ending.

Oscar has performed well, but he has also performed as he should. And next year he needs to improve his qualifying against his team mate.

Next year is big for both of them. If Lando wins again pressure is on Oscar, idlf Oscar wins pressure on Lando.

And therein lies the problem. Oscar and Lando do not have the same expectation in the level of performance. To Oscars credit, he's made people look at it like they should, and it's natural for a guy to come into the team and be this good at this end of the grid. This is why one is paid £4m and the other is paid £20m. The comparative cost per point difference is insane, though Oscar is surely going to get a new contract that reflects his ability.

Colapinto hasn't had time to demonstrate anything, nor has Lawson. And neither of their paired drivers sit at the same level as Lando and nor are they competing with the likes of Max, Charles, Carlos, Lewis or George.


"The days of long drawn out learning curves are ending. "

Tyre management is a long drawn out learning curve, as is racing experience, since Sims don't provide those for you.

But, I don't see why they shouldn't have the same expectations. Your teammate is who you can really be based against. Oscar got the job, on the basis he would perform, and he has had to perform.

If Oscar was pulling a Perez, the case against him would be damning, and he would be going into last chance saloon already.

He Doesn't get a pass for being new, and he doesn't need one. Charles Leclerc 2nd season was pole position in his second race, 7 poles and 2 wins. You have to step up.

( I think Leclerc is better than both Mclaren drivers though)

Because you can't just come in and drive a Formula 1 car at this level and win a WDC. Of course it takes a hell of a lot of ability and also experience, as well as certain mental resilience.

Oscar does have to perform, and his team mate is his base. But I can't see any reason in your sentence, or in my head, why a driver is expected to be about as quick as a WDC contender after 1 season and 5 further races. I actually think that's quite a silly thing to say.

No way that after 1.5 seasons, Oscar should be expected to be legitimately as effective as a guy who's raced for 5.5 seasons or for anyone to think all the perks of being with the team and racing for F1 for all that time is of no benefit.

You've got high expectations, but I fear, only in the direction of one driver

[Emag]

I think Leclerc is better than both Mclaren drivers though

I agree, Leclerc is an amazing driver and it's actually a shame Ferrari hasn't been able to give him a title-worthy car except for early-2022.

It's also a shame he is completely tied down with them and I don't see him moving from Ferrari at all. I am confident he would have done much better than Lando with the car McLaren had this year.

Still, both current McLaren drivers could get better with time. Max for example, couldn't beat Daniel until their 3rd season together and beyond that it's actually tough to gauge how much Max was improving because his teammates have been horrible at the second RedBull seat. I do feel like Max as a driver had a huge step up in 2020 though and it's really impressive how close he was to Bottas considering how dominant W11 was. So there could be another step coming Lando's way, who knows. I am definitely hoping there is.

As for Oscar, it's a no brainer that he has more room for growth/improvement. Whether he has it in him to unlock that potential, it's another matter.

[ScuderiaLeo]

But, I don't see why they shouldn't have the same expectations. Your teammate is who you can really be based against. Oscar got the job, on the basis he would perform, and he has had to perform.

If Oscar was pulling a Perez, the case against him would be damning, and he would be going into last chance saloon already.

He Doesn't get a pass for being new, and he doesn't need one. Charles Leclerc 2nd season was pole position in his second race, 7 poles and 2 wins. You have to step up.

( I think Leclerc is better than both Mclaren drivers though)

It's fair to compare Piastri to Russell and Leclerc, as they're his direct benchmarks. But even though Piastri hasn't quite reached Leclerc's level, he's still doing well enough. I just don't think he's showing signs of being a future WDC like some expect.

IMO Piastri is setting himself up to be more of a Sainz figure where he's above average and capable of winning but is unlikely to be in a true title fight unless his teammate is bad. Which isn't happening because Norris isn't bad.

[FittingMechanics]

I think Leclerc is overrated because he was against aging drivers in Ferrari and because he is a great qualifier (maybe because the car was setup that way). Sainz who probably no one rates as top tier driver is very close to Leclerc in that Ferrari.

I think only truly top driver at the moment is Max. Hamilton and Alonso showed that they can do it but it's not clear if they faded or it is just that they are not in a competitive car.

Leclerc to me looks like he is prone to mistakes (remember Mexico) but I have no data to prove it.

[Ben1980]

And therein lies the problem. Oscar and Lando do not have the same expectation in the level of performance. To Oscars credit, he's made people look at it like they should, and it's natural for a guy to come into the team and be this good at this end of the grid. This is why one is paid £4m and the other is paid £20m. The comparative cost per point difference is insane, though Oscar is surely going to get a new contract that reflects his ability.

Colapinto hasn't had time to demonstrate anything, nor has Lawson. And neither of their paired drivers sit at the same level as Lando and nor are they competing with the likes of Max, Charles, Carlos, Lewis or George.


"The days of long drawn out learning curves are ending. "

Tyre management is a long drawn out learning curve, as is racing experience, since Sims don't provide those for you.

But, I don't see why they shouldn't have the same expectations. Your teammate is who you can really be based against. Oscar got the job, on the basis he would perform, and he has had to perform.

If Oscar was pulling a Perez, the case against him would be damning, and he would be going into last chance saloon already.

He Doesn't get a pass for being new, and he doesn't need one. Charles Leclerc 2nd season was pole position in his second race, 7 poles and 2 wins. You have to step up.

( I think Leclerc is better than both Mclaren drivers though)

Because you can't just come in and drive a Formula 1 car at this level and win a WDC. Of course it takes a hell of a lot of ability and also experience, as well as certain mental resilience.

Oscar does have to perform, and his team mate is his base. But I can't see any reason in your sentence, or in my head, why a driver is expected to be about as quick as a WDC contender after 1 season and 5 further races. I actually think that's quite a silly thing to say.

No way that after 1.5 seasons, Oscar should be expected to be legitimately as effective as a guy who's raced for 5.5 seasons or for anyone to think all the perks of being with the team and racing for F1 for all that time is of no benefit.

You've got high expectations, but I fear, only in the direction of one driver

Because others have been, as I said Leclerc walked into Ferrari season 2 and rolled over Vettel a 4 time world champion, hell Lewis walked in an gave Alonso a going over. Do we want to look at Oscar as similar levels of potential, we need to consider him against others.

Lando season 2 he finished 8 points behind his more experienced team mate. I'm sure with ups and downs. So, in reality he performed as he should. This isn't an Oscar Vs Lando thing. It's about a young driver doing what is expected of them.

But, I also think Oscar has performed as he should, and times even better.

[mwillems]

But, I don't see why they shouldn't have the same expectations. Your teammate is who you can really be based against. Oscar got the job, on the basis he would perform, and he has had to perform.

If Oscar was pulling a Perez, the case against him would be damning, and he would be going into last chance saloon already.

He Doesn't get a pass for being new, and he doesn't need one. Charles Leclerc 2nd season was pole position in his second race, 7 poles and 2 wins. You have to step up.

( I think Leclerc is better than both Mclaren drivers though)

Because you can't just come in and drive a Formula 1 car at this level and win a WDC. Of course it takes a hell of a lot of ability and also experience, as well as certain mental resilience.

Oscar does have to perform, and his team mate is his base. But I can't see any reason in your sentence, or in my head, why a driver is expected to be about as quick as a WDC contender after 1 season and 5 further races. I actually think that's quite a silly thing to say.

No way that after 1.5 seasons, Oscar should be expected to be legitimately as effective as a guy who's raced for 5.5 seasons or for anyone to think all the perks of being with the team and racing for F1 for all that time is of no benefit.

You've got high expectations, but I fear, only in the direction of one driver

Because others have been, as I said Leclerc walked into Ferrari season 2 and rolled over Vettel a 4 time world champion, hell Lewis walked in an gave Alonso a going over. Do we want to look at Oscar as similar levels of potential, we need to consider him against others.

Lando season 2 he finished 8 points behind his more experienced team mate. I'm sure with ups and downs. So, in reality he performed as he should. This isn't an Oscar Vs Lando thing. It's about a young driver doing what is expected of them.

But, I also think Oscar has performed as he should, and times even better.

Yeah Leclerc is great. But by and large in F1, that isn't how it works and he was racing against a guy who'd lost his powers before then, it just wasn't quite so obvious until as when Leclerc joined. In the vast majority, experience is required to get the car to do what you want it to do, some can transcend that. Leclerc, Hamilton, Nando and Max are the only ones in about 20 years. The sums up about how hard it is to be that guy,. that comes in at the front and does the business from day 1. it is telling that he was only a little better than Sainz overall at Ferrari, and I don't put him in the same class as Lando.

In any case, this all seems like an attempt to measure Lando and Oscar by different sticks, one in which Oscar is expected to come in and do more than what Lando was able to do when he started with mclaren and today, and whilst it is perfectly explainable that Lando hasn't pushed on and done more, it is right to expect Oscar to be the match of Lando.

When you put it down in words, it looks very silly, because it is.

Oscar looks to be a Sainz like driver because he's only about matching Lando's performance, whereas Lando is a WDC contender.


Hmmm.... doesn't quite add up. It almost feels like there is an outcome people would like to get to.

[mwillems]

Anyway, truly the last, enjoy debating/convincing yourselves!