2024 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 01 - 03

[Seanspeed]

Can we stop this 3rd or 4th best car nonsense?

His car was the easiest to drive sunday, even Perez was driving it fine.

Perez didn't even score points. He wasn't making a bunch of mistakes no, but if Max didn't exist, nobody would think that Red Bull was somehow class of the field looking at Perez's drive. You'd just assume it was some midfield car. Not saying it was truly midfield car, just that Perez was absolutely not some indicator of how supreme the RB inherently was.

The RedBull looked good in Perez hands if you look at stability braking etc. He was just clumsy in his manuevers. If decent driver had the RedBull and started alngside Max he might have finished right behind him too.

Not a Legendary drive if you asked me. He didn't look god-like or anything, just keeping the on track and making clean overtakes. If he lapped the entire field then we can talk!!

Have people forgotten Perez isn't actually some pathetic pay driver or whatever?

[Seanspeed]

Can we stop this 3rd or 4th best car nonsense?

His car was the easiest to drive sunday, even Perez was driving it fine.

Perez didn't even score points. He wasn't making a bunch of mistakes no, but if Max didn't exist, nobody would think that Red Bull was somehow class of the field looking at Perez's drive. You'd just assume it was some midfield car. Not saying it was truly midfield car, just that Perez was absolutely not some indicator of how supreme the RB inherently was.

Perez is a bad driver who crashed multiple times in the wet with a dominant car in his hands, like Canada last year.

Hamilton and Sainz couldn't keep the car on track in the wet... That Perez kept it on track is in itself a minor breakthrough for him. Colapinto crashed under SC and he supposedly has Checo's seat next year, Stroll went off before anything even started.

I'm not using Perez as an indicator of Max's performance, so you shouldn't use it as a baseline for how good Max is. Perez is not a good driver at least this year.

The argument about how Verstappen's performance wasn't actually that impressive was being at least partially based on this idea from yourself that Perez did fine, which I responded to. Perez didn't even score points.

Any reasonable person would see that Perez's performance only further highlights how amazing Verstappen was.

[avantman]

Have people forgotten Perez isn't actually some pathetic pay driver or whatever?

It's actually quite funny, because Perez finished 4th only behind Mercedes drivers and Max in '16 Brazil, the race was held in equally if not more treacherous conditions. But more importantly Perez also finished ahead of wet weather expert Vettel in a Ferrari, who later wiped the floor with "the fastest man in F1" [in Brundle's and Chandhock's rosy world] Charles Leclerc every time it rained, and another wet weather expert Hulkenberg in equal Force India.
I won't even mention '12 Malaysia where Perez was in the fight for the win with Alonso, because it wasn't wet enough, and he was driving a Sauber which many believed was almost as fast as Lewis' Mclaren (I mean surely Perez cannot be so good, almost to challenge Lewis later in the season for the victory in Monza, unless he had much faster car). And I won't mention of course another wet race, '20 Turkey, because what will it change? Everyone now knows Perez can't drive an F1 car on a wet track.

[Espresso]

Have people forgotten Perez isn't actually some pathetic pay driver or whatever?

It's actually quite funny, because Perez finished 4th only behind Mercedes drivers and Max in '16 Brazil, the race was held in equally if not more treacherous conditions. But more importantly Perez also finished ahead of wet weather expert Vettel in a Ferrari, who later wiped the floor with "the fastest man in F1" [in Brundle's and Chandhock's rosy world] Charles Leclerc every time it rained, and another wet weather expert Hulkenberg in equal Force India.
I won't even mention '12 Malaysia where Perez was in the fight for the win with Alonso, because it wasn't wet enough, and he was driving a Sauber which many believed was almost as fast as Lewis' Mclaren (I mean surely Perez cannot be so good, almost to challenge Lewis later in the season for the victory in Monza, unless he had much faster car). And I won't mention of course another wet race, '20 Turkey, because what will it change? Everyone now knows Perez can't drive an F1 car on a wet track.

Perez drives well when the car fits his driving style.
Max just adjust to the car and the circumstances to maximize what’s possible. Who else used the curbs to rotate the (current) car in wet weather conditions? None except Max! Add to that the casual discussion with GP to not stop expecting a red flag. That ability to think, adapt and adjust is a jewel.

[LHamilton]

Have people forgotten Perez isn't actually some pathetic pay driver or whatever?

It's actually quite funny, because Perez finished 4th only behind Mercedes drivers and Max in '16 Brazil, the race was held in equally if not more treacherous conditions. But more importantly Perez also finished ahead of wet weather expert Vettel in a Ferrari, who later wiped the floor with "the fastest man in F1" [in Brundle's and Chandhock's rosy world] Charles Leclerc every time it rained, and another wet weather expert Hulkenberg in equal Force India.
I won't even mention '12 Malaysia where Perez was in the fight for the win with Alonso, because it wasn't wet enough, and he was driving a Sauber which many believed was almost as fast as Lewis' Mclaren (I mean surely Perez cannot be so good, almost to challenge Lewis later in the season for the victory in Monza, unless he had much faster car). And I won't mention of course another wet race, '20 Turkey, because what will it change? Everyone now knows Perez can't drive an F1 car on a wet track.

Forgot to mention that Hulkenberg wiped the floor with Perez in Brazil '16. He was a hefty distance ahead of Perez before the red flag and managed to get a puncture on the safety car restart, so had to go all the way to the back and start last on the restart. But hey, who cares about context, hey?

Perez was seemingly slower than Stroll (who, to be fair, is quite decent in wet conditions) in Turkey '20. Stroll pitted, Perez did not. I dont know exactly what happend to Stroll after that, but I seem to remember he damaged something and couldnt get the laptimes he had before he pitted.

Different cars works differently. So you can really only get a fair assessment on a driver compared to his teammate, who shares the car. So comparing to other drivers is somewhat meh, unless you have a reference first. And as mentioned above, Hulkenberg primarily, but also probably Stroll, is faster than Perez in the wet.

Cant remember what happend to his teammate in 2012, but I seem to remember just that it was a good race from Perez. So kudos on that.

[FW17]

High time Sky F1 gets all their international contracts cancelled by FOM and replaced by F1 TV feed.

The sky coverage is just atrocious

That's your taste. I love the Sky coverage.

What dont you like about it?

Why should FOM allow biased opinion which was primarily made for England should be sent around the world? It was ok when FOM did not have their own platform and track team, but now they have a fantastic one.

[bluechris]

Perez is very good guys, i agree because how else any other team will get WCC if he leaves from RB and a normal fast driver takes his place?
RB must keep him for at least 10 years lol

[venkyhere]

Might have to rewatch this race one day.

I'm just sure not it was a legendary drive.

Max was clinical I would say. More of a strategic brilliance than outright driving on Godly level. Perez too looked very stable in the RedBull, he just botched some his moves.

I think what genuinely impressed me was the phase when Max passed Charles(?) and was gunning down behind Lando at breakneck pace! Best part ofthe race for me.

Yes, you should re-watch, from the 'onbard' perspective (choosable on f1tv) atleast until the first safety car, until which he overtook 9 cars to go from P17 to P6 (2 gird slots vacant) in very few laps. WITHOUT DRS. Nevertheless, the matter of high praise for him is not really about the 'number of overtakes' anyway.

It's about the cleverness and skill involved in how different the lines he chose to drive were (for example the outside T3 passing of 3-4 cars in first lap was reminiscent of the same thing from brazil 2016 ; another example was how much kerb he was taking on T12 to straighten before applying full throttle for sector3) , about how he was braking late (Actually brake-release-brake-release) into T1 and yet not locking up his fronts, and how smooth the inputs were for all the sector2 turns (onbards show it well). The car wasn't eccentrically loaded at any point where he had to saw at the steering wheel to wrestle it back (of course, don't know what he was doing with his feet because we can't see it on the onboard footage). As a result his tyres were in much better shape than anyone.

Yes he got lucky with red flag ; yes, many of the laptimes (until the 2nd safety car) were very similar to Russel/Norris. But it was the way in which those laptimes were achieved without punishing the car/tyres.
All the praise across the paddock from 'people in the know' is really about how differently he was driving to everyone else. It's not about the 'how much gap' or 'how many places' or any such measurable numbers, it's the way in which he 'found a way'.

[SharkY]

The argument about how Verstappen's performance wasn't actually that impressive was being at least partially based on this idea from yourself that Perez did fine, which I responded to. Perez didn't even score points.

Any reasonable person would see that Perez's performance only further highlights how amazing Verstappen was.

Dialtone didn't say that Max's performance wasn't impressive, just that he didn't drive 3rd or 4th best car, and I agree with that.
I can't see any indication, that RBR was any worse than Mercedes or McLaren, not to mention Ferrari (Charles was losing 0,5s/lap to Gasly after red flag, only picked up the pace in the end). Perez's inability to overtake Lawson cannot be a clue, that the car was bad.

Yes, Max had a brilliant drive, as he is probably the best on the grid in the wet. But he also had a very stable car, that was setup perfectly for the rain GP (just like Alpines). It takes nothing from his win, that he had the best car (or at least on par with MCL and Russell's Mercedes).

[lh13]

Given the catastrophic performance of Checo and Verstappens inability to get by Leclerc and Ocon I'd say that Alpine and Ferrari were probably at least on equal footing with Red Bull. Russell was also clearly very fast and got the better of both Norris and Leclerc.

Honestly I'd say anywhere from 1stto 5th is absolutely fair, with 3rd to 4th being about where I'd place it. It was clearly the fastest car in the hands of Verstappen, but I'd say most of that comes down to driver skill rather than the car itself.

Let's start with a fact: Max said Leclerc is good in the rain.
Another fact: everyone said Max is better than the rest in the rain, this is not in contention.

Another fact: Leclerc went from losing 1s/lap to Russell to gaining 0.5s at times to Russell at the end of the stint and being the 2nd fastest car on track. Similarly with Norris who was about to pass LEC until he got gapped 3s behind LEC at the end of the stint.

Did Lerclerc learn to drive half way through the laps after the red flag? Or is it possible that maybe the car isn't useless?

RBR is not the 4th best, it's maybe the 3rd but it's a highly track and setup dependent evaluation as you could see in COTA where he gapped Norris and his tires lasted the whole sprint race until they decided to change setup and sunday it didn't work. In Brazil Max was 1st in Q1, qualified 3rd in SQ3, clearly had the pace throughout the weekend, wet or dry. But he's still driving the 4th best car? Worse than Mercedes which randomly spins out of track if you look at it wrong.

Hamilton drives bad, Russell drives good, Mercedes bad. Perez drives bad, Max drives good, RedBull good.

[mzso]

You guys have to stop worrying about how detractors are coping in the wake of Verstappen's performance on Sunday. The performance was enough torture for a lifetime for them. It takes a lot more than a fast car to execute overtakes and win races in the dry, let alone the wet as we have seen this year. For those still interested in the sport and what makes a champion, F1TV has excellent material. The overtakes, the wet lines, the survival mode, the 17 fastest laps of the race. Max Verstappen was letting us know it's his world and we're all just playing in it.

It took him 1 corner into the race to pay tribute to 2016:

https://i.postimg.cc/C5NCC6fp/Lap-1.gif

The RB20 has struggled with curb riding all season long, an utterly recalcitrant car in these situations. Yet it was Verstappen, the curb jumper of Juncao:

https://i.postimg.cc/fW3F15Y2/image.png


Late braking is the domain of the Mclaren and the Ferrari but it was Verstappen making lunges from Rio with a championship on the line. He made Hamilton and Piastri look like his teammates.

https://i.postimg.cc/QM2qj7rw/Man-Down-Hamilton.gif

https://i.postimg.cc/PryK1Nmv/And-another-one-PIA.gif

https://i.postimg.cc/9MyY0fmM/And-Anoth ... as-Gas.gif


He forced Leclerc into an error:
https://i.postimg.cc/TPL989Bn/gif-Brazil.gif


Every driver has their element and Sunday was Max Verstappen in his element. Many others wouldn't have won in the same car. We've seen it before and we'll see it again. There were a lot of fans of other teams who have been complimentary to Max after this weekend but it's always amusing to see the coping of the staunchest of detractors.

I think your animation just shows how much faster his car is compared to the backfield.
I mean he plainly just goes faster on a less advantageous line. He's not doing and special driving. That said, he did some good stuff. But mainly staying out on old tires until the race interruption is what won it for him.

[mzso]

Inhumane comment above reported, please ignore

I fail to see pointing out the FIA allowing a bunch of dangerous driving is classified as inhumane.
And there's no question that mistakes were made in both cases.

[BanMeToo]

High time Sky F1 gets all their international contracts cancelled by FOM and replaced by F1 TV feed.

The sky coverage is just atrocious

That's your taste. I love the Sky coverage.

What dont you like about it?

Croft is terrible to listen to. Atrocious is the right word

[TFSA]

I think your animation just shows how much faster his car is compared to the backfield.
I mean he plainly just goes faster on a less advantageous line. He's not doing and special driving. That said, he did some good stuff. But mainly staying out on old tires until the race interruption is what won it for him.

The animations mostly show braking. This is not Verstappen having a faster car - this is Verstappen braking late, with everyone else braking early.

The lap 1 animation shows him taking a different line, which is faster, but the other drivers don't have the confidence to take. That's just a 2016 repeat. He's not going on a less advantageous line - he just understands wet weather better than most drivers, and has the confidence to go for it. It's like that Horner quote about when Horner realized he wasn't cut out to be a racing driver, because the guy in front of him were driving in a way where he just thought "I can't do that. I don't have that confidence." I suspect many drivers feel the same way in the wet - they don't have the confidence to go for some lines that others do.

Having a car which is stable in the rain helps if course, and Red Bull was able to provide that this weekend.

[Waz]

So much effort on a technical forum to discredit what was an obviously great drive.

Red flag or not, they all started together after that and Max eventually cleared off into the distance. Every driver had the same opportunity at that time to go with him, and they didn't.